Allow players seat in the Conclave (Discussion)

[Israe]

I have an idea. Let's join up together, destroy the Conclave and their useless puppets and re-establish a good, old fashioned Lolthite theocracy, just like the good ol' days. Ay? Ay? Who's with me?

Challenge accepted.

[Storm Munin]

No, allowing player Conclave seats would be the same as replacing/adding to the Dukes of Baldur's Gate.
In my humble view such positions of gravitas should remain in DM hands.
Remember a Conclave Seat/Duke can send hundreds of troops, wizards and whatever not at another player at the mere flick of a wrist or by suggesting something to their assistants and so on.

There is nothing stopping anyone from becoming an aide or assistant of such a lofty creature, but the sheer political power of these entities are simply too much to place on a player's shoulder not expecting deep shit to hit the fan sooner rather than later.


As for the Seventh Circle I believe the Seventh Circle has the eldest continually used toons in terms of UD guild members still walking the streets of Sshamath.
(Bregan coming close behind, Temple a vast distant third).
I may be mistaken since Bregan in particular has been a tight nit bunch, but absent for stretches of servertime line afaik.
The Seventh is still around, everyone just seem busy with creating something new as always. Same as on the surface honestly.


Reaching fame, power and infamy in the underdark is already possible and have been done before, what usually ends that ambition is a lack of cooperative roleplay downstairs between the player groups (or even within the groups themself).
We can introduce the title and office of supermega conclave seat and it is still mostly likely to be a persona to be ignored (or why not insulted) by the simplest of orcs as is.


The main overall goal of 90%(ish?) of UD toons seem to be to reach the surface and dwadle there.
Many new UD DM have had their own agendas and tended to care little for what was before them creating utter lore chaos in the process.
Six months your guild is run by one NPC, 3 months later its someone else entirely, then we shift back to the first one before new changes apply within a month or six.
Meanwhile any halfwit surface DM can spoil years of roleplay in the UD with a single event for his surface playing friends doing the impossible for kicks and laughs.
The event immediately getting Head DM approval and status as server lore.
Belittling the UD and the actions of the players there is not only condoned, it is DM sponsored.

Lets deal with those first?


I am highly amused by how quite a few new players in this thread tend to suggest things that the Seventh Circle have already done and are already doing.
The same could no doubt be said of Bregan D'Aerthe to a point.


If conclave seats become open for players I would highly recommend the following criterias:
2 years minimum of UD roleplay (on this server or another).
1 year minimum of using the conquering toon to create lore around it on this server.
Head DMs ruling on whether the player has the knowledge of lore to pull it off. (DnD and server lore).

YMMV

[Cubicle]

DM_StormMunin. You know the lore and you've been down there for a long while. Why not?

[Aelcar]

I am highly amused by how quite a few new players in this thread tend to suggest things that the Seventh Circle have already done and are already doing.
The same could no doubt be said of Bregan D'Aerthe to a point.

My thought, exactly.

[DM_Absolution]

Knowing server lore is not the issue , it is about knowing UD lore (according to FR lorebooks), and making our UD equivalent or at least similar to that. Also creating a line on how much political power we should allow players to wield.

[DM_Absolution]

No, allowing player Conclave seats would be the same as replacing/adding to the Dukes of Baldur's Gate.
In my humble view such positions of gravitas should remain in DM hands.
Remember a Conclave Seat/Duke can send hundreds of troops, wizards and whatever not at another player at the mere flick of a wrist or by suggesting something to their assistants and so on.

You are here assuming that just because someone has that power, they will exercise that power to that extend, and that is one dangerous presumption. The Conclave also houses many members, not just the few that would be replaced by players.
As you mention further down, and which i agree with, is that a player who do get elected to this position will be someone who has dedicated a lot of time and serious RP beforehand.

There is nothing stopping anyone from becoming an aide or assistant of such a lofty creature, but the sheer political power of these entities are simply too much to place on a player's shoulder not expecting deep (#2) to hit the fan sooner rather than later.

Alright Nostradamus. I have also mentioned before that strict rules would have to be made before we would allow anyone to take this position.

The Seventh is still around, everyone just seem busy with creating something new as always. Same as on the surface honestly.

I would love if someone actually brought some life back into Seventh circle, but that guild has been dead for a long time.

Many new UD DM have had their own agendas and tended to care little for what was before them creating utter lore chaos in the process.
Six months your guild is run by one NPC, 3 months later its someone else entirely, then we shift back to the first one before new changes apply within a month or six.
Meanwhile any halfwit surface DM can spoil years of roleplay in the UD with a single event for his surface playing friends doing the impossible for kicks and laughs.

Shit happens, no one is perfect, and not everyone can read up on 5 1/2 years of server lore. And i believe i have mentioned before that new DM's have to dare to take risks, otherwise they often become dull and boring if they keep letting fear of failure hinder their every decision.

The thing is Storm, that people sometimes have to take risks, and attempt to shake things up. Of course i do believe that there are aspects of the lore that has been established that should be respected, but DM's can't walk on their toes all the time.

As we all know, you have played in the UD for a long time, perhaps you ought to apply to become a DM? unless you have already done some time as one, i do not know. But with your experience on this server the players would benefit extensively, i cannot speak about your actual FR knowledge since we have not talked about it.

The event immediately getting Head DM approval and status as server lore.
Belittling the UD and the actions of the players there is not only condoned, it is DM sponsored.

I can only speak from personal experience, but DM's that plan to create events that might shake at established "truths" should make a post on the DM forum about it, and let them come with feedback and see if it crosses and lines.

This was not practiced much during my time, i did it a few times, but got little response. It might have gotten a lot better now though.

If conclave seats become open for players I would highly recommend the following criterias:
2 years minimum of UD roleplay (on this server or another).
1 year minimum of using the conquering toon to create lore around it on this server.
Head DMs ruling on whether the player has the knowledge of lore to pull it off. (DnD and server lore).

YMMV

Two years seems a bit much, but solid background experience in the UD, and knowledge in general. The second requirement is the most crucial one, one i agree with, but these required years dedication seems a bit too arbitrary.

I want the focus to be on whether or not we should allow this. And i still believe that analogy with the dukes is not a solid as people think.

[Storm Munin]

@DM_Absolution

So you are saying that if someone is a trifle troublesome to a Conclave Seat , it would always be dealt in person or by associated toons?

Then whats the point of gaining the political power?
You still have to handle every last irksome gnome yourself.

Sounds like a steep limitation to how such a toon would be allowed to act with what is supposed to be a ruler of the land, server rules considered.


As for the Conclave Seat it supposedly run as everyone for himself/herself with scarce common ground. At least thats what the lore section tell us.
Make sense considering the race we are talking about and their nurtured homicidal competetiveness.

So, to interfer in any other Conclave Seat's business would mean either an interest in pecking a fight, doing it to countering another Seat, seeking favor or having some common ground on the subject at hand I suppose.
Or you could do it for the hell of it, granted.
e t c

But it is decidedly not the jolly Knights of the round table we are talking about here.


Feels like what part of what you envision is a version of the glorious mode called Kill the fool with the chicken from a cartoon western shooter computer game.
A player making his/her toon a constant target for everyone else playing just for the sake of holding the office (well, the chicken) until it gets dead.

I am not saying it cannot work, I am merely being thoughtful and prude about it.


No, not DMed here yet.

When and if I do, I will make my damndest not to railroad what has happened prior to my own involvement.
DMing is about coaching things along, not dominating everyone else.
Not an easy feat granted.

YMMV


Edit:
I need to sell someone a chicken it seems. *peering at the post below this*

[Aspect of Sorrow]

A player making his/her toon a constant target for everyone else playing just for the sake of holding the office (well, the chicken) until it gets dead.

Kind of like rolling a Drow.

[DM_Absolution]

Storm Munin..

The lore pages does not state what you say, you are once again making assumptions. It says that;

Except in rare times of danger to the whole city, Sshamath's ruling council is a roiling mosaic of alliances. As a result, the day-to-day governance of the city is left to the absolute authority of the individual masters, according to his or her school's acknowledged spheres of influence. As one might expect, the various schools are thus engaged in a subtle, ongoing struggle to extend the authority of their representatives on the Conclave of Sshamath.

And it also tells us this;

S'shamathan politics is very opportunistic, cut-throat in the sense that you will often be sold out if someone offers a better deal. Yet despite this fluid and fast paced political arena a studied observer can discern four more closely aligned groups which work to counter the other's influence, and advance their agenda(s) jointly.

Meaning that there are alliances, even though some of them may be grudgingly. Many of them may be CE but they are not dumb, they know that assassinating someone just because of a disagreement will cause immense havoc on a large scale, as well as within his/her own school. People respect power, and often the one who has seat on the conclave is usually the most powerful spellcaster at his/her own school, or the most clever one.

This is of course up to the Staff on how to run the politics surrounding the schools and the Conclave, but you are looking a bit too superficial at drow as a race. If they were as chaotic as you make it seem, NO city would last long, as they would all kill themselves within months. (Arbitrary time, see i can do it too)

My hope was that allowing a few players over time get this position would help bring life back into other guilds down there that might benefit from some behind the scenes political schemes (Though not just assassination of other conclave members), if i gave that impression earlier, then that is NOT what i ment. If a political situation is dire, then the conclave will get together and find a solution to it, and everyone will of course first think of what is best for their own school, but they also do not wish to see their city fall due to in-fighting. If the reason you expect this chaos is because you don't believe players can accept that another player has a seat, then you really do not trust other players, nor do you believe that the staff are capable of creating rules that would limit this sort of unnatural behavior.

The hope was that we as a group would find strict rules that would limit other players from creating chaos within the PC side faction/guild, so when one player achieves a seat on the conclave, the ones below him will instantly plan to overthrow him.

But, this whole idea of having player get a seat on the conclave has already gotten discarded, and i thought that instead we would focus on bringing activity to the City magistrate instead.

And i think letting you become DM would be good for you, it will teach you a few things. I will not spoil much for you, but if you plan to respect every other decision other DM's have done before you, then you will have a hard time. Also, if you would DM the drow as you are presenting here, then i fear for Sshamath. That said, i do not believe you would be a bad DM, far from it, but you will realise that things are not as simple as you portray it.

[Storm Munin]

@Dm_Absolution
I think you are overreading what I wrote, while I was obviously not clear enough.

the day-to-day governance of the city is left to the absolute authority of the individual masters, according to his or her school's acknowledged spheres of influence

Exactly my point, as further explained written above your quote in the lore section.

The Conclave convenes only to debate issues that do not clearly fall within one individual master's area and to resolve disputes between schools of wizardry that cannot be resolved privately.

Unless there are reasons to, the other school Seats, the Lolthites and I guess the Chaptermaster would not meddle too deep into another Seat's sphere of influence.
Then again reasons can always be invented.

Or do you find any other meaning to those sentences?


Who is talking about assassination?
Oh, the chicken thing.
My bad, I was trying to come across about a natural replacement procedure over time, while questioning what benefit would counter any sane persons threat assessment of the position.
Not some sort of arena slaughterfest type of thing.


As for offering a Conclave Seat (apparently not happening) or Magistrate as a kickstarter to fuel faction mechanics I hope you are right.
However, in the last two years I see a lot more of the winning mindset rather than the cooperative one down here.
Which may just be what is seen, rather than the actual truth of it granted.
If you are correct that might be changed by this suggestion, if so we are all better for it.

Not entirely sure why we need titles to approach each other though.


Trust is a fleeting thing, sometimes it blossoms.
I tend to try to be positive about it.
Else, why would I even consider DMing in the first place?
But thank you for asking.

What drow in Sshamath are you referring to?
It is a city of individuals with vastly differing mindsets.
The overall theme and quite a few novel cherries can all be found in the lore section honestly.


You really should come down here more often mate, since you seem to have forgotten so much.

[DM_Absolution]

About FR lore, i have not forgotten anything. Server lore and the happenings on this server the last 2 years, yes i know little. I perceived that last comment of your innocently, as i assume it was not meant rudely.

I do plan to return to the UD very soon, i am working on a character atm. Since i returned i have spent most of my time studying for my exams, but i will return for full now since i finished my last one today.

Just hoping the server will start to work soon.

[Storm Munin]

It was indeed an innocent remark.

Glad to hear it.

Indeed.

[Untaramar]

I think it would be a bad idea to give conclave seats to players. Though you argument that not everyone will wield their power if given the chance, in most cases (especially UD players) thats not true, it would be wielded like an over-industirious dwarf with a hammer.

UD is a scary place and the only thing that'll keep you safe from everyone else is their fear of your power, both character-wise and political.

Now if players want political power in S'shamath they should join a school and get a high enough rank, true the rank of leader of the school of necromancy isen't a conclave seat, but it's very close to.

Giving players a conclave seat would risk ruining the citys structure, and S'shamath would stop being the "City of Dark Weavings" and become "Menzoberranzan II", just look at how often the spider kissing spell-begger houses have had superiority in the city (save for the npcs).

[Blackman D]

Now if players want political power in S'shamath they should join a school and get a high enough rank, true the rank of leader of the school of necromancy isen't a conclave seat, but it's very close to.

the leader rank of the school of necromancy is the conclave seat actually

from the public guild page http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5535

Hidden: show

Conclave Representative of the School of Necromancy (title and rank)
O9/None ((NPC only))
Level 30
Feat: None (yet?)
Int: 24

TDS Requirements: The school of Necromancy Conclave Representative is basically decided by the Necromantic Council, but it is generally a position given to, or taken by, the most powerful wizard among the Council. Tsabrak of the Blood (an NPC) currently holds this position. In order to take this from him you would need ample support from the other masters, and a very sly plan to overthrow Tsabrak, which means you would need to most likely kill him. Tsabrak, an old vampire, is generally guarded by loyal retainers, his "children" and his "mistresses", drow he turned into vampires, which would make direct confrontation difficult if not impossible. Also the very school protects him from magics such as undeath to death, and all divine magics (no prayers would be heard from the Masters Chambers). To take him out, you will need a plan, and a damn good one... and also a DM to make it all happen. Last, but not least, you need to be willing to part way with your player character. If he by some means does overthrow Tsabrak he will be NPCed, and be the new Conclave Representative for the school... until he gets overthrown .

Primary Duties: Serve as the Representative for the School in the Conclave. As a Conclave Representative you, along with the other representatives, would decide on policy for the city of Sshamath. Also, as your school's leader you have the final say on all school policy and issues.

the school of necromancy is just one of the few that had a chance to be developed but all the schools were suppose to have the same type of structure

the highest rank for the school of necromancy that a player can really keep is the one below conclave rep, but is near npc status itself

[Celduil]

I am in perfect agreement with everything Storm_Munin just said. As a side-note, don't make it even more impossible to play a Lolthite in Sshamath by taking away what little we managed to etch out for ourselves.