QC Forums

[DM Ioulaum]

I have temporarily locked this topic to let everyone consume the information generated so far. I will unlock it in one day so that fresh arguments can be presented, if desired.

I realize that discussing the way a community works and is organised is an important aspect of any community. We don't want to discourage that. But things were getting a bit too pointed, it would be a shame to let that derail this otherwise very interesting topic.

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BGTSCC is a collaborative gaming project. We're not a country, we don't lock-up people in prisons, we don't send the police to your door, nor do we take away your house if you don't pay your taxes.

Therefore you don't get a say in everything like you would with a democratic country. Total transparency is necessary for governments because they have total power. This server doesn't have any power. Its a powerless game run by volunteers with a dedicated community.

This community won't work if everything is decided by everyone. We can't even keep on top of the real-life political process, nevermind spending all that time on a game (it borders insanity). And is that a bad state of affairs? You have a right to discuss decisions after they are made, and you are free to make suggestions and point out flaws. The forum rules grant you those rights and we wouldn't want it any other way (Just so long as you mind your tone).

Disagree? That's unfortunate. Ofcourse we can't force you to be here (wouldn't even try), and we can't really threaten you with anything anyway (We're powerless). If you don't like it then it might be time to move on or take a break. Take your pick from any number of other NWN2 servers. Or even other games. Or go do something in the real world, see a new movie with a friend.


If you are simply curious: see this enlightening post by Ivan.

You people overestimate how much is going on in QC forums.
Here's a screen of the current state of QC subforums:



It's not ideal for representing the general picture, so let's group the forums by their actual role:

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Ready For Implementation

This forum is for items that are ready to be implemented or are already on the server for private or public use and testing. So, the role is: Bug reports

Spell Rebalance

This is a subforum for old project from 2011 that had since been completed. So, the role is: Archive

Closed Issues

This subforum consists of items that have passed through all stages of team review and have since then already been fixed or added. It is kept around in case anyone ever needs to come back to it. So, the role is: Archive

Archived

Random stuff that is no longer relevant be it technicalities for QC access or process, sub-forum related stuff or the stuff that is out of team's area of expertise (server hosting, for ex.) So, the role is: Archive

Crafting

Feedback on the Crafting project: conceptualizing, prototype testing all the stuff associated with it. So, the role is: Dev Feedback

Feats, Spells

Discussions about adding/reviewing/changing various feats, out of the scope of adding new PRCs. So, the role of both is: Content Concept

PRCs

Discussions about adding/reviewing/changing various classes, complete with class - only Feats and Spells. So, the role is: Content Concept

Area

Subforum for feedback to devs who sumbit their areas for a fresh look before adding it to the server. So, the role is:Dev Feedback

Bugs & Exploits

Reports of bugs and exploits. Consists of its own Closed Issues subforum in case some bugs ever resurface again. So, the role is: Bug reports (most of it is archive though)

Framework Projects

Discussions and feedback about a large-scale project. The role is:Dev Feedback

Items

Conceptualization and creation of new itemsets, stores, etc. So, the role is: Content Concept

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So, in the end here's the actual spread of posts:



(Interactive version)

And out of all this stuff how much do you think can really be open to everyone?

Content conceptualization is out of the question just because of the sheer amount of flame it would cause from the vocal few. And as much as I want to, I don't believe in community self moderation over the internet.

Bug reports are obviously out of the question.

Dev Feedback requires insight into inner workings of the engine and is mostly filled with technicalities.

Archive, could be opened, sure, but that's not exactly worth it, in my opinion just because the info there can be terribly out of date.

I can see area testing being done by everyone actually working.

In conclusion: I am not against openning up a portion of QC forums in read-only mode to everyone, but as I see it, there is not much content that actually can be reviewed by everyone. If you can come up with a working scheme, by all means.

At the same time, QC members aren't special, they are players like everyone else and their role isn't a privilige, if you are technically sound and can actually find yourself working out a compromise that benefits majority, and not yourself, then by all means you are welcome to participate in the dialogue.

P.S.: having worked in different manufactoring enviroments, QC reviews are never open to the consumer without some heavy editing. Just food for thought.

[RagingPeace]

I'm not sure I agree with the point made that bug exploiting is more important to avoid rather than getting a quick fix.

For example: I posted a bug on a feat, I wont mention what it was, as I imainge it will just be removed from the post anyway, like it was in the past. I posted the feat bug and was asked to keep my eyes on the bug, and see if I could figure out how/when it happened. I eventually posted what little data I had, and never got a reply about said PM. I have no idea whether the bug was fixed or not, I don't think I've seen it in any of the patch infos, and the character has been RCRed into something else.

Though my point to make is, if I can't find the potential bug, then suddenly all the work is placed on the development guys, and you're left with no additonal player feedback, other than those that have access to those posts.

Wouldn't it be better to let some people exploit it for a limited time, and get a fix. Rather than having the bug remain for a longer period of time?

Note: I have not read up on all the posts, so I appologize if I missed some points that have already been made.

[Blackman D]

not all updates require a download, just a server reset btw

usually its physical changes to the server (areas and such) that require a download, classes may im not sure about those, but things like items if i remember right can be added to the database and updated with a reset

feats not being whole classes may also be able to get updated that way also, but i can tell you for sure you do not see feats on the auto downloader, mostly areas

[Ivan38Rus]

Scripts and item blueprints don't require downloads, whereas any change to area, any 2da (feats, spells, classes, etc) new models, all of them require a download.

[Eclypticon]

There are simply some things that cannot be openly discussed for the sake of the community. Exploits are one of these things. Some can be detrimental if everyone is aware of them. Some topics QC goes over could turn into mega threads of heated discussion do to the touchy nature of some things and some people are prone to misunderstanding. QC handles theses things better as a closed nit group of trusted individuals much of the time, and does a good job of responsibly resolving things. Although rarely discussed, some technical topics could pose certain risks for abuse as well.

We can open up the QC forums for everyone to read, but it will make our inboxes over flooded when we need to talk about things that cannot be made immediately public. There is nothing dark going on in the QC forums. Most stuff that is proposed is already public knowledge to a degree after in group review. Everything the community needs to know can already be found here: http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Baldur's_G ... icles_Wiki

Additionally, when it is felt appropriate, our discussions are often brought up outside the QC forums. I do not think any changes are needed. Otherwise, we might start opening other forums for the sake of transparency: DM forums, Developer Forums, and other private groups.

[grunts]

I voted yes but could really care less if they are public or not. If you really want to see the QC forums go and apply for it.

I'm more concerned with some of the obvious, self interested trolls they let on the QC team. That's nice people are willing to volunteer their time but that doesn't mean they are fit to make decisions for the server.

[Karond]

I'm a bit torn.

I can understand the desire to see how things are done and what is coming up, but there needs to be a benefit to it. How would opening up the parts of QC that doesn't deal with exploits or filesharing make things better? One argument that was raised was this:

I was not trolling i realy though it could be helpfull for the devs to see the players opinion of stuff like class balance.

Good night.

I may have a skewed view on this, because almost all suggestions we get from players comes from players currently being biased while sending the suggestion in. If it isn't a suggestion that benefits their characters directly or indirectly, then it's typically about boosting a class that they deem not interesting enough unless it gets a big powerspike so that they can begin to play it.

Still, this isn't a good argument to me because as said previously QC are in general the most knowledgable about mechanics and personally I've a handfull as it is just dealing with my fellow QC members and in the past DMs that join the discussion too. QC work, besides testing, feels to me like being a watchdog constantly watching out for poorly thought out suggestions. It happens that developers and QC members sometimes mention that "the players want this, or think this", which is always a preface for a bad suggestion riding it as an argument to break balance in favor of something. It's quite rare that we need public input, usually that is reserved not for actual balance but to percieve how much of a headache a suggestion would cause the staff in general if it was implemented (as in, number of complaints).

That said, sure there could be good ideas lurking around among the players, and yes the suggestion forum isn't enough if you don't know what's being discussed, but for all such cases there is arguably more cases of bad input or outright critique. It seems like when one would weigh these two against each other, it's easy to not open up. Plus, too many opinions can cause some topics to drag on for extended periods of time, postponing things in general.

There was another argument:

I just want to read what is being discussed. It's been made clear that I'm probably not qualified to comment on it. Fair enough.

I found Karond's small little snippet of info on the crafting extraordinarily helpful. It explained the thought process and concerns that went with it. I'd rather get the scraps then nothing at all if the idea is totally off the table. That's fine.

That's fine. Curiosity is fine to appeal to, but I wonder if opening up things just won't create pressure. For example, in the Comic thread there were a few posts about crafting. It's something people want into the game, and people were asking what the holdup is. So, let's do an experiment:

What's the general opinion on the fact that the "snippet" I posted was done so in April 2014 and nothing has really happened since?

What do you as a reader feel right now? What the hell is QC up to? Is this just lazyness from the QC? Why can't Rasael just get his stuff together and send this in? Or for Duster47 to implement it? Surely if you were being heard all of this would change in an instant.


Understand that there is a certain natural way for things to happen in our community, and it permeates everything. All of us meander a bit with our effort and thoughts. I've a few things to do on a "To do"-list, but I'll only really do them when I feel like it. A sudden burst of inspiration or motivation, or feeling like I can sacrifice the time, or wanting to get rid of the burden of something hanging over me at long last.

That's the nature of volunteer work. This is why developers jump from project to project, neither being finished, then coming back to it, working on it a bit more, then moving on. It's why most of the new DMs we see tend to disappear after the first two weeks, never repeating the activity that they had during those two weeks, or why so many of you jump around on new characters, or joining new guilds, or creating new guilds on a constant basis, not to mention the amount of time spent playing varying wildly. It's just how it is.

More opinions is well...overrated. It could turn out for something good, sure. It could help those individuals involved in making a real effort in our community feel more appreciated, and even motivated to get things done. That's possible, as we do see such voices raised every now and then and even in the topic I linked above on crafting or epic merchants. We also see voices raised in a different way, which is frustration over things not getting done, and assuming it's not bashing individuals out of self-entitlement at the very least it comes out as pressuring someone else to do stuff for them. As in, why isn't this getting done? What happened to this that was supposed to be out now? Where is this right now, did you change this? This is just likely to make the individuals putting forth an effort less motivated. After all, if you work on a new class, area, merchant, quest or really anything, and people end up being negative (or just stating that it's irrelevant), you would question why you're making the effort at all.

This is true even when it comes to where we would wish our priorities lie. We may wish that all effort was brought towards this or that goal, I definitely do, but if the individuals making stuff would rather do something else then at least that's better than not doing anything. The key should be in encouraging them to work towards those goals then, rather than faulting them for not focusing on them. I'm convinced that if a DM gets a lot of praise on the appreciation thread, they'll feel more inclined to do more events, and the same goes for all the work Rasael puts into our community, or the work that QC or our developers do.

So that's why I'm torn on the issue. Sure, it can bring some good, but it can also bring several bad things. Does this desire to opening up the QC forums come from curiosity and maybe adding useful input once in a blue moon? Or just from wondering why things aren't moving along at a desirable pace?

[thids]

I couldn't care less if QC forums are visible or not, so I'm going to abstain from voting (not that the vote actually means anything, I mean the polls aren't designed to force the staff's hand and they have been more than clear that QC will remain private). I have disagreed with some suggestions and decisions made by the QC in my time here, but I never really cared too much past the initial discussion/argument.

Oh except for the decision to push through the super-saiyan angel that shoots lasers from its eyes class, when there are quite a few other, more appropriate paladin PrC's to work on. That one still triggers me


But in general, wasn't this year quite transparent when it came to the stuff being worked on? At least the big proposed updates. I like the way that was handled, Rasael posting proposals and a poll in the public forums and beta version of JEGs being available to public with a thread for bug reports and feedback.

[mrm3ntalist]

That's nice people are willing to volunteer their time but that doesn't mean they are fit to make decisions for the server.

No QC member makes desicions for the server. I dont know where you get that from.

Speaking about who you thing is a troll and how fit one is, you better look in the mirror. Some might have the same opinion about you. You would be correct to tell me that you dont give a shit, but then again those "trolls" you talk about have been accepted by those running this server. As with every desicion, some will like it, others wont

Anyway, from what I heard ( from players and other QC members), QCrs and the QC forums are a problem. Lets disgard it and be done with it

Oh except for the decision to push through the super-saiyan angel that shoots lasers from its eyes class, when there are quite a few other, more appropriate paladin PrC's to work on. That one still triggers me

Some desicions you will like, others you wont. Even though the class you talk about hasnt been implemented, you cant seriously ask for globally accepted desicions.

I've a handfull as it is just dealing with my fellow QC members and in the past DMs that join the discussion too. QC work, besides testing, feels to me like being a watchdog constantly watching out for poorly thought out suggestions.

Thats why they are discussions. Any idea from a QC member, good or bad, should be discussed and if most think it is a bad one ( or good ), then it is. There is no need for watchdogs. Thats a role for the ones making the desicions - DMs, Devs, Admins. Unless the roles are mixed up

[mrieder79]

Hey, QC team, I think you guys do a great job. I believe that the server is better for your efforts.

[grunts]

No QC member makes desicions for the server. I dont know where you get that from.

I'm just going to assume you knew what I meant on this one.

Speaking about who you thing is a troll and how fit one is, you better look in the mirror. Some might have the same opinion about you. You would be correct to tell me that you dont give a (#2), but then again those "trolls" you talk about have been accepted by those running this server. As with every decision, some will like it, others wont

I'm not on the QC team so whether some think I'm a troll or not is irrelevant. Sounds like you do though so please feel free to PM me specifics. When you say they've been accepted are you sure you don't mean "tolerated?" I'm guessing they weren't as trolly when they first applied for QC.

"Accepted by the staff" isn't really an argument anyways. The wrong people slither their way into positions of power all the time, not sure why this is such a tough pill to swallow. And it's true every decision has opposition but that doesn't justify making bad ones(not that QC has just saying in general).

[matelener]

I voted yes (a partial yes though) because I wonder what is the actual thought process when it comes to turning a blind eye on blatantly overpowered stuff and at the same time disregarding any tweaks to the weakest classes / PRCs. I might come off ignorant saying that but the reason for it is... the lack of access to the secret discussion about balance.

However, I agree that the part with exploits etc. should be non public. I also agree that QC members need a stressless, positive environment where they can work on stuff. But, from my perspective, some things just don't seem right. For example, the latest PRC that was introduced - Breach Gnome. I honestly do appreciate the work of developers but I dare to say it was a wasted effort in this case. I have yet to see a single breach gnome in-game and the reason for it is the horrible (imo) class design.

Anyhow, it's just my opinion hopefully not taken as trolling or being negative.

[mrm3ntalist]

I'm just going to assume you knew what I meant on this one.

I don't. You have to be clear about it. The role of QC is to advise the DMs/Devs when asked. If you want to make more of it, fine

I'm not on the QC team so whether some think I'm a troll or not is irrelevant. Sounds like you do though so please feel free to PM me specifics. When you say they've been accepted are you sure you don't mean "tolerated?" I'm guessing they weren't as trolly when they first applied for QC. with. I don't even know you, or maybe I do and you are on an alt account... I don't know that.

I do know though that no behavior of any QC has been changed. If it did and became problematic, then the staff would talk and/or remove this person, one way or another. Just because you have a bad opinion about someone, or you don't like him or anything, it doesn't mean that he doesn't contribute.


"Accepted by the staff" isn't really an argument anyways. The wrong people slither their way into positions of power all the time, not sure why this is such a tough pill to swallow. And it's true every decision has opposition but that doesn't justify making bad ones(not that QC has just saying in general).

Assuming... guessing... Nothing concrete can be made with assumptions and guesses, not even an opinion based on facts.

To set things straight, the "look your self in a mirror" was meant to reflect on yourself and opinions. I don't want to use the same expressions you use for the people you play this game.

I voted yes (a partial yes though) because I wonder what is the actual thought process when it comes to turning a blind eye on blatantly overpowered stuff and at the same time disregarding any tweaks to the weakest classes / PRCs.

By "blatantly overpowered stuff", I guess you mean items. Player items are not discussed in the QC, its a DM discussion. I guess you want access to DM forums as well...

Like Ivan said in a previous post, some here overvalue/wrongly assume, what QC does.

Tweaks are always happening. I don't know if you noticed but there was a lack of updates for over a year maybe? In that time, QC has made some tweaks about many classes and wait for them to be implemented.

If you ask for a team, any team, to fix ALL problems, ALL the time, then you are at the wrong place. This is an online gaming community based on those that volunteer to help, and any access to any forum will change that.

[thids]

Oh except for the decision to push through the super-saiyan angel that shoots lasers from its eyes class, when there are quite a few other, more appropriate paladin PrC's to work on. That one still triggers me

Some desicions you will like, others you wont. Even though the class you talk about hasnt been implemented, you cant seriously ask for globally accepted desicions.

I don't expect that, neither do I expect that every decision made by the staff or QC on BG will be to my tastes. I'm just saying, that's one of the things that stuck with me as a bad decision (in my opinion). That one had nothing to do with mechanics though.



I personally don't think that the QC is doing a bad job, I just think that you guys should sit down and review your guidelines and policies when it comes to the situation of the mechanical power on the server and implementing/tweaking things in regards to that.

There are several ridiculous factors in the BG mechanical system when it comes to raw mechanical power and balance, ranging from classes to feats. They are not likely to change or get hit by a nerfbat, ever. We can pretend that they will one day, but we all know they won't. I mean there are people ragequitting over bugs being fixed, I can't imagine what would happen if a class got significantly nerfed and brought in line with the wanted balance of the server. You need to figure out how to deal with those ridiculous factors, because treating them as outliers and ignoring them is not the correct solution.

[mrm3ntalist]

There are several ridiculous factors in the BG mechanical system when it comes to raw mechanical power and balance, ranging from classes to feats. They are not likely to change or get hit by a nerfbat, ever. We can pretend that they will one day, but we all know they won't. I mean there are people ragequitting over bugs being fixed, I can't imagine what would happen if a class got significantly nerfed and brought in line with the wanted balance of the server. You need to figure out how to deal with those ridiculous factors, because treating them as outliers and ignoring them is not the correct solution.

That's a problem we always have and we will keep on having. To fix a bug that exists and that will affect many players is very difficult. It is difficult because no one want to waste other people's time. If you make one of the many Archer/assassin builds, and spend X amount of months to get it t level30, then a decision that will drop the effectiveness of your build will at the very least annoy you. I know there are some that wont mind, but the majority will be pissed.

So you need to offer rebuilds. To even consider that, a DM ( or many DMs ) need to offer their time. They need to sit on the nexus, helping players with items, wait for them to make their builds give them their items back... then go to the next player and repeat. How many fixes can you implement this way? How much those fixes worth in comparison to the players, DMs and devs time? Is for example the death attack/manyshot bug, worth that much for you?

Sure, if everything comes into place it will be fixed. If this was a paying job, it would have been fixed again.