Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

tankteddy wrote:
How to improve Half orc, Give them the Human quick learner Feat just like half elves. This way the INT of a half orc can still be low but they dont lose out on RP for not having the skills needed to do so.

Half Orcs don't lose out anything on RP due to their low intelligence. You want access to more skills? Don't max out so many skills, spread your points around. What is the point of an intelligence penalty if we add ways to circumvent it? If you want to roleplay a half orc who is a master of many things, pump your intelligence at the expense of combat attributes. There is a reason why intelligence is tied to the number of skill points you get, intelligence signifies your capacity to learn. Quick Learner should have remained a human only feat.

Steve wrote:

Give them the Human quick learner Feat just like half elves.

Fantastic idea!

My only question would be how that would effect current Half-Orcs. But it is likely that there are so few on BGTSCC that the Staff could offer a small window of time for a strict rebuild.

I would say no, we already have the method of RCR if you want to but most current half orcs on the server. Their RP already matches their skill set.

If they want a rebuild let them take a hit. Beside it will make you want to play and level and RP more with your new skills.

Edit: not sure how that would effect current level 30 but I assume if delete led to 29 then pushed back to 30 they would have 33+ skill points to asign I think. Don't know I might test it.

Thids wrote:

tankteddy wrote:
How to improve Half orc, Give them the Human quick learner Feat just like half elves. This way the INT of a half orc can still be low but they dont lose out on RP for not having the skills needed to do so.

Half Orcs don't lose out anything on RP due to their low intelligence. You want access to more skills? Don't max out so many skills, spread your points around. What is the point of an intelligence penalty if we add ways to circumvent it? If you want to roleplay a half orc who is a master of many things, pump your intelligence at the expense of combat attributes. There is a reason why intelligence is tied to the number of skill points you get, intelligence signifies your capacity to learn. Quick Learner should have remained a human only feat.

Have you tried to make a archer based orc granted this was before ranger was open to any diety.

Making a none caster based half orc ranger. Or having to multi class into cave stalker or something just cause your an UD orc is a HUGE disadvantage on top of their already low skill points you have prerequisite that some require 8-10 points in 4-6 skills. On top of multiclassing xp hits or cross classic skill points. It makes a lot of build ideas that would be valid RP ideas nearly impossible if not unusable.

Otherwise you risk things like using all your epic feats just to fill your RP or being stretched so thin you are only 1/4 as good as a jack of all trades bard. Don't get me wrong I understand where you are coming from but there is a line between natural born skills and learned trades. Half orcs are scary. Give them a natural +2 intimidated or such. Elves and dwarves make great smith's give them +2 craft skill.

My simple point is Orc and Half orc are underused because options are limited for them. If your not making some with STR based classes they fall off quickly. As lore states half orcs are faster then orc and should be able to make great hunters/assassins. With out having to dump everything into INT.

With able learner they keep the skill points they need with out making the class really more powerful. Your not going to make a wizard with a -2 INT even if your skills are the same. That 1 DC can make or break a PC

What do intelligence and skill points have to do with archery? Grey Orc archery rangers work well enough, I fail to see how penalties to charisma and intelligence prevent someone from making an archery based grey orc, especially considering they get bonuses to strength and wisdom. As for Half-Orcs I still don't see a problem. Charisma and Intelligence do not affect archery.


Where do you get this idea that Half-Orcs should make great hunters/assassins? Half-Orcs are open to many classes, and Races of Faerun says that higher level half-orcs could be found with levels in just about any prestige class they can qualify for. It says nothing about GREAT hunters and assassins.

Half-orcs’ natural strength and toughness push them strongly
toward fighters and barbarians and away from the spellcasting
classes. Half-orc rogues are common as well.

Again, not a single word about great hunters and assassins. And what exactly stops half-orcs from being assassins? The requirements for the PrC are ridiculously low.


The intelligence penalty is limiting your roleplay only because you allow it to do so.



For some reason, the majority of this thread has so far been focused on ways to remove, lower or circumvent the HOrc penalty to intelligence.


As a sidenote, I highly doubt that the popularity of both Grey Orcs and Half Orcs is affected much by their penalty to intelligence.

tankteddy wrote: With able learner they keep the skill points they need with out making the class really more powerful. Your not going to make a wizard with a -2 INT even if your skills are the same. That 1 DC can make or break a PC

This is outright false.

If this were true, then Humans would not be able to make good wizards, simply because some races have +2 INT.

Ending with INT 26 or 28 instead of 28 or 30 respectively isn't tragic at all.

Thids wrote: As a sidenote, I highly doubt that the popularity of both Grey Orcs and Half Orcs is affected much by their penalty to intelligence.

I agree.

How about a custom orc/Horc only barbarian type prc?

I get suggestions, but I dont see why people are SO dead set against any changes to the HOrc.

It's like saying, "Motorcycles serve no purpose, too many people are injured by them, banned it".

What do you care, if you are not affected by it? For those saying "well I AM affected", tell me how, please? Because the mechanical stats of the HOrc Suck. Pure, simple, fact. Even in 4th Ed and 5th Ed, Wizard of the Coast made changes to bring them in line with other races.

It's the natural evolution of things. And this server does make changes. Let's continue and bring the races in line with one another.

Atlas wrote: Why don't we nerf Sun Elves, or Duergar

No problem for me, I don't really care. However, it's worth noting that nobody nerfed Half Orc. They are actually buffed, even with respect to Kaedrin.

Sun Elves make good wizards. I can make you a Half Orc wizard that is just as good. It can have 30 INT base excluding Prodigy, Vampiric Feast, high AC with ICE and +1 Tumble, Toughness + Steadfast since he has base CON 16, around 300 HP and three to four metamagic feats, as well as Greater Spell Focus in your school of choice.

Why don't we build properly, before talking about nerfing and buffing

I have nothing vs buffing Half Orcs, btw. I really don't care either way.

Hawke wrote:I get suggestions, but I dont see why people are SO dead set against any changes to the HOrc.

It's like saying, "Motorcycles serve no purpose, too many people are injured by them, banned it".

What do you care, if you are not affected by it? For those saying "well I AM affected", tell me how, please? Because the mechanical stats of the HOrc Suck. Pure, simple, fact. Even in 4th Ed and 5th Ed, Wizard of the Coast made changes to bring them in line with other races.

It's the natural evolution of things. And this server does make changes. Let's continue and bring the races in line with one another.

I still dont understand why Half-orcs suck? What is it the thing they suck at? Any examples?

HOrcs shouldn't make such good Wizards as Sun Elves. And they should be rarer than hen's teeth. Races are not equal; they are better at some things than others. If you want to kick against this then you should be prepared to be less than optimal.

+2 to this, +2 to that. What nonsense; just invest a couple of points and you have your +2.

P.S. Never played a Duergar. Only played 1 Sun Elf and deleted them before level 10.

Thorsson wrote:HOrcs shouldn't make such good Wizards as Sun Elves.

You don't have the flexibility in the build that the Sun Elf has. You are forced to invest more in specific ways, thus 5 Wizard levels in the epics become more important, and your CHA and WIS are destined to be dump stats.

Said this, yes, you can make an excellent Half Orc Wizard, and nobody will ever notice the difference in performance (because it'd be minuscule). Your DC spells will kill basically as much, your blasting power will be as much, and you'll be a tad tougher.

Sun Elves are excellent wizards all around. I said I can make ONE wizard that is as good. But not as many.

It's clear that certain races are better at certain things."Better" is a relative concept though. THIS better isn't much, at all. Before calling for buffs or nerfs, it's necessary to assume proper play and proper builds in order to have valid ground for the requests.

AFAIK, the original DnD +/-2 on abilities also went with L20-max for a PC. Later, NWN expanded to L40 (did DnD?) but left the racial adjustments as originally defined. This allows different races to do similar things similarly despite what should be substantial racial differences.

If it was up to me, there would be +/- 4's on physical stats. Such as -4 STR on halfings; they're half-size humans, such as 7-year old child.

Hmmm... I could change the 2DAs....

4th Ed Half Orc

Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low light

Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Intimidate

Half-orc Resilience: The first time you are bloodied you gain 5 temp hp (increase to 10 at 11th level and 15 at 21st level)

Swift Charge: You gain a +2 bonus to speed when charging.

Furious Assault: encounter/ free action/ trigger (you hit an enemy)- attack deals an extra 1(W) if it is a weapon attack or 1d8 if it isn't.



5th Ed Half Orc

+2 strength and +1 constitution

proficient in the Intimidation skill

darkvision


Again, not saying they should be boosted up like this, but it is to show how even WoTC saw that races were to be brought in line a bit more with one another.

I think WotC have been boosting everything since they took over D&D. There's money in catering to the monty haulers. Luckily we're playing 3.5Ed and not 5th. Well, we have been so far...

Duster47 wrote:AFAIK, the original DnD +/-2 on abilities also went with L20-max for a PC. Later, NWN expanded to L40 (did DnD?) but left the racial adjustments as originally defined. This allows different races to do similar things similarly despite what should be substantial racial differences.

If it was up to me, there would be +/- 4's on physical stats. Such as -4 STR on halfings; they're half-size humans, such as 7-year old child.

Hmmm... I could change the 2DAs....

Halflings are not like 7 year old Humans, even if they were the same size. Possibly Str should be adjusted by more, but then Halfling sized armor should weigh a fraction of human-sized (less than a quarter). Don't look for realism in D&D, any more than you would in a fantasy book.

Anyway we don't go to level 40 thankfully.