Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Truthiness wrote:Sonic Immunity is actually left off of the breach list, along with another immunity that I don't quite recall.

+1

chambordini wrote:As far as C&C I am too completely against the change...

Once again, what was the change? If we're to understand from the obscure descriptions offered by other participants in this thread, it sounds as if C&C is DC based, and that there might be some sort of save involved... for whom? Everyone around the caster? What saving throw is involved? Is it also a save for half(half of what?), or is that just amplify?

I noticed no discernible difference between the old assassins C&C and the current one when cast. The combat log simply said "Casting Clairaudience/Clairvoyance".

Clarification, please. And thank you.

Truthiness wrote:Sonic Immunity is actually left off of the breach list, along with another immunity that I don't quite recall.

sonic if i remember right was taken off because of SoR, also the reason why some bosses (if not the majority of them) have passive sonic immunity

Truthiness wrote:Sonic Immunity is actually left off of the breach list, along with another immunity that I don't quite recall.

As far as the changes to amplify/c&c, it might have been better to just make the bonus based off CL (1 listen per CL, capping at 20 for amplify, 1 spot/listen per 2 cl, capping at 10 for c&c), which would have greatly lessened the massive increase of amplify/c&c wands (+12 listen total with both) yet left 20+ cl bards the same.

In pnp, amplify ONLY has a save if you center it on a unwilling creature, you can still center it on yourself and it functions the same as it does in nwn2. Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is very different in pnp, there's no bonus to spot/listen, because it's basically a short range scry.

This man quoth wisdom!

And why would you alter the entire breach list to counter one feat that you can't only get from 21, or the better versions at 27 on? I don't mean to be insulting, but that is just a bad balance choice. SoR is already shut down by silence. And even if the bard is running Joyous noise, the silence still shuts off the damage to anyone standing in the silence.

And while we are on the subject of breach lists, why are practically none of the divine buffs on it? Next time you are feeling froggy go breach a fully buffed FS or Druid and let me know what you get. Spoiler, next to nothing is the answer.

Blackman D wrote:

Truthiness wrote:Sonic Immunity is actually left off of the breach list, along with another immunity that I don't quite recall.

sonic if i remember right was taken off because of SoR, also the reason why some bosses (if not the majority of them) have passive sonic immunity

Oh, and giving the bosses 50% passive sonic immunity (which is what it appears to be on most of the ones I have seen) because a bard might show up to fight them is literally the definition of meta-gaming...

Boddynock wrote: And why would you alter the entire breach list to counter one feat that you can't only get from 21, or the better versions at 27 on? I don't mean to be insulting, but that is just a bad balance choice. SoR is already shut down by silence. And even if the bard is running Joyous noise, the silence still shuts off the damage to anyone standing in the silence.

You aren't being insulting at all.

It looks like an oversight, to me, that has never been fixed because it's strictly a PvP problem.

The fact I didn't even notice with my sound attacks tells you how much of an impact it has on PvE and general DM events: zero. Nobody casts Energy Immunity anywhere.

And while we are on the subject of breach lists, why are practically none of the divine buffs on it? Next time you are feeling froggy go breach a fully buffed FS or Druid and let me know what you get. Spoiler, next to nothing is the answer.

Spell Resistance, Energy Immunity, Premonition and Stoneskin are there. If I want them naked, I use Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and then they're dead.

This is another PvP circumstance, though, that has nothing to do with how viable classes are.

Invoker, come on, this whole thread is about PVP. The "Detection vs Stealth" debate has ALWAYS been centered around PVP, or at least PC/PC interaction. I have never felt the sting at all when i have non-detection toons go to DM events...

And I have tested greater breach against buffed divines, recently. You might want to double check and make sure nothing else has changed. It gets next to nothing that they actually use.

Boddynock wrote:Invoker, come on, this whole thread is about PVP. The "Detection vs Stealth" debate has ALWAYS been centered around PVP, or at least PC/PC interaction. I have never felt the sting at all when i have non-detection toons go to DM events...

You are right on the PC/PC interaction, but that's VERY different from PvP. That's more akin to "cooperative PvE". If someone is stealthed trying to overhear what you say out in the open, it has likely nothing to do with being in conflict with you, or those around you.

On the PvP side, I'd be surprised if there are many sneaks you can't detect on a Bard, with or without C&C. Not saying I advocate the change, or that I care either way. Buffs and Nerfs disgust me, in general.

And I have tested greater breach against buffed divines, recently. You might want to double check and make sure nothing else has changed. It gets next to nothing that they actually use.

You mean after the update :O?! Why would those things be removed from the list? Aside from EI, the rest belongs there even in vanilla NWN2.

It would be very strange.

Invoker wrote: You are right on the PC/PC interaction, but that's VERY different from PvP. That's more akin to "cooperative PvE". If someone is stealthed trying to overhear what you say out in the open, it has likely nothing to do with being in conflict with you, or those around you.

On the PvP side, I'd be surprised if there are many sneaks you can't detect on a Bard, with or without C&C. Not saying I advocate the change, or that I care either way. Buffs and Nerfs disgust me, in general.

Player vs player doesn't mean combat, if they are spying on things you dont want them to know that is PVP, as in their oals are in direct opposition of your own.

And bards get listen as a skill...that alone makes them no better or worse than other classes that get spot or listen. Greater heroism only makes up for the fact that bards don't pump wisdom, but most sneaks pump dex... Bards are not intrinsically good detectors, but they are very good when they need to be. That is, and always has been, the tradeoff to amplify being a +20, it is reactive, not passive. As for people hearing footsteps IG and using that info as reason for casting amplify...are we balancing the server around what metagamers do now? Fix that issue, don't rebalance... (also, i didn't really know that was an issue, cause I rarely play with the sound on anyway, need my tunes bro.)

Boddynock wrote: Player vs player doesn't mean combat, if they are spying on things you dont want them to know that is PVP, as in their oals are in direct opposition of your own.

Usually, being extremely slow, stealthed characters don't choose whom to overhear: they happen upon someone, and overhear stuff that might be more or less useful (RP-wise).

It is very rarely the case that characters are directly spied upon , because closed spaces have NPCs sneaks aren't supposed to metagame (or doors...), and I don't believe you'll discuss crucial secrets out in the open.

And bards get listen as a skill...that alone makes them no better or worse than other classes that get spot or listen. Greater heroism only makes up for the fact that bards don't pump wisdom, but most sneaks pump dex...

That is the case theoretically, but not practically. Bards have several ways to push their skills higher (especially Listen) than your average class with Listen as class skill.

Moreover, their unique lack of reliance on equipment to be extremely strong (#naked_bard_killing_the_Balor) and the availability of superior spot gear with respect to the equally attainable sneak gear (change two rings and a hat, there you go...), in addition to the fact you keep rolling listen vs MS every few seconds, you don't stop at the first try, nor the second, nor the third...make the Bards able to spot pretty much every sneak with ease.

As for people hearing footsteps IG and using that info as reason for casting amplify...are we balancing the server around what metagamers do now? Fix that issue, don't rebalance... (also, i didn't really know that was an issue, cause I rarely play with the sound on anyway, need my tunes bro.)

I hope that wasn't a factor. That's just bad form, more than a balance issue (and I need my tunes too...).

Invoker wrote:
That is the case theoretically, but not practically. Bards have several ways to push their skills higher (especially Listen) than your average class with Listen as class skill.

...

Moreover, their unique lack of reliance on equipment to be extremely strong (#naked_bard_killing_the_Balor) and the availability of superior spot gear with respect to the equally attainable sneak gear (change two rings and a hat, there you go...), in addition to the fact you keep rolling listen vs MS every few seconds, you don't stop at the first try, nor the second, nor the third...make the Bards able to spot pretty much every sneak with ease.

...

I hope that wasn't a factor. That's just bad form, more than a balance issue (and I need my tunes too...).

Ok, practically speaking, long term effects that bards use to boost Listen are greater heroism and inspire competence. Thats a +12 right there if the keep GH up all the time. But there are plenty of other classes that get GH too. Regardless, couple that with the fact that most bards have a negative will mod (we will assume a will of 10 though) that means the only intrinsic difference between a bard and anyone else is 6. That difference is made up for by and WIS based toon just by having high wis. And made up for by the sneaks via thier dex.

Bards detection skills are reactionary. Passively they are only marginally better than anyone else.

And FYI, EVERYONE get multiple detection rolls, they always have...so what? Thats exactly how it is supposed to work.

And for everyone pointing to the naked bard killing the Balor, that is what we call anecdotal evidence, did he do it one hundred times and post the results? Did he even do it ten? Did he do it after the Balor got a passive 50% sonic immunity? It's meaningless with a sample size of one. The odds of fizzling a spell with 5% ASF four times in a row is .000625%, but it happened to me once. The fact it happened didn't change the odds, it is a meaningless anecdotal occurrence.

I still feel like, regardless of all this discussion, the best option here was to give the sneaks their gear back. They would be less in danger from the person switching out those two rings and a hat, and would still be in danger from bard, druids, and rangers, especially when the bards and rangers are given reason to use their detect boost stuff. How is that not a balance?

Oh, and before anyone asks, most builds get HIPs as soon as the can, so 8 or 13 if they can manage it. You need 19 levels of bard to get +6 from inspire competence. Bards detection skills require a fairly hefty investment into the class...

And if you dip three bard to get Amplify, you can only cast it once per day, for three whole rounds.

I get the feeling you believe I am agreeing with this nerf. I however would like to remark, one more time, that I quite clearly said otherwise. I don't like buffs (unless you're BFZ, or equally broken class), nor nerfs (ever).

Simply put, Bards are better detectors than anyone but Druids and Rangers, because:

-) They need very little in terms of gear, so Listen gear does not hinder them. A Rogue or Monk with listen gear on is a cripple, for instance.
-) They have Inspire Competence and GH more or less at will, plus C&C and Amplify when needed. Even if you are below the target's MS, you can AND will detect him easily because of how detection works

That makes them far better than any other option. Mathematically.

Boddynock wrote:Oh, and before anyone asks, most builds get HIPs as soon as the can, so 8 or 13 if they can manage it. You need 19 levels of bard to get +6 from inspire competence. Bards detection skills require a fairly hefty investment into the class...

And if you dip three bard to get Amplify, you can only cast it once per day, for three whole rounds.

This doesn't matter at all. You can't be looking for balancing CvC situations halfway through progression...that doesn't make any sense.

Boddynock wrote:Bards detection skills require a fairly hefty investment into the class...

You get +30 using two spells... is that a fairly hefty investment... Really?

Just those 2 spells and a maxed listen and you dont need anything else. Thats how broken this is. The game is on easy more in order to detect a sneak

Boddynock wrote:Thats a +12 right there if the keep GH up all the time.

You realize that +12 takes the place of 4-6 item slots on the stealth PC...and that is only IF they have given up loads of Natural, deflection, armor and dodge AC in order to gain those points... Is there an opposing spell to grant +20 MS? No, the only spell to improve MS is pass without a trace (it gives +4, not exactly competitive with +20).

If you would like to test your bards detection abilities today I think I can hop on for a little while, I am fairly certain you will still be able to detect. However, just for arguments sake:

33 MS + 12 (max dex) + 3 (amulet) +2 (head) +2 (gloves) + 2 (armor) +2 (belt) +6 (boots) +2 (ring) +5 (stealthy and sf: ms) = 69.

Listen 33 - 1 (wisdom modifier if you don't have grace up) + 20 (amplify) +10 (c&c)= 62... You need to beat the sneaks roll by 7, without even considering GH or Inspiration, which would actually put you ABOVE the player that has sacrificed 3 feats, AC and other stuff to really focus on stealth... You nullified them with 2 spells, gratz!

Seriously though, with this change you will still find that pesky sneak, perhaps it takes 30 seconds instead of 6, but casting amplify / C&C is still a GTF outta there to any sneak, cuz they know they will be found, regardless what gear they have.