Law Clarification

[AstralisAdept]

As you yourself just said. "Where there is no laws against them."

That pretty much wraps it up.

Where there are no laws its is left to the strong to prey upon the week if the week indead allow them.

I am in no way calling any single person weak, i'm merely saying that this is a place where RP happens, sometimes favorable sometimes not so favorable but RP none the less. Take the good with the bad and enjoy the game.

Its beginning to clear things up. The part I think people are overlooking is the "strong" in some zones godmodding. Being vigilantes in font of guards and such, or making up laws that dont exist.

Heck in some areas attacking someone and there companion would be outright breaking the rules. IE:- "Punishments for Official Crimes may only be given to Player Characters by Dungeon Masters (DMs)"

[HazNpho]

As you yourself just said. "Where there is no laws against them."

That pretty much wraps it up.

Where there are no laws its is left to the strong to prey upon the week if the week indead allow them.

I am in no way calling any single person weak, i'm merely saying that this is a place where RP happens, sometimes favorable sometimes not so favorable but RP none the less. Take the good with the bad and enjoy the game.

Its beginning to clear things up. The part I think people are overlooking is the "strong" in some zones godmodding. Being vigilantes in font of guards and such, or making up laws that dont exist.

Heck in some areas attacking someone and there companion would be outright breaking the rules. IE:- "Punishments for Official Crimes may only be given to Player Characters by Dungeon Masters (DMs)"

Before I continue... I want to start by pointing out how you claim this is a board spectrum thing, but have now conceded the point to this being the region around FAI.

Secondly you are now claiming god modding is in effect, while disregardding previous mention by DM Ruling that they consider the summoning of certain creatures and walking around an area that would clearly be under watch by some local NPC force, as god modding the reaction of those NPC's to your summon.

I believe at this point you are facing a '2 wrongs don't make a right' scenario, if in fact the PC's are claiming to be the law of the area. If they are not and simply reacting to the summoned entity as their character would by slaying, banishing, turning, dismissing, etc... then they are reacting as would be expected of an adventurer who's goals are in the best interest of the realm. However, if they are simply slaying you outright for your summon, then we need further clarification. Same applies if they are attacking said summon simply because they 'hate dogs' or what have you.

[AstralisAdept]

As you yourself just said. "Where there is no laws against them."

That pretty much wraps it up.

Where there are no laws its is left to the strong to prey upon the week if the week indead allow them.

I am in no way calling any single person weak, i'm merely saying that this is a place where RP happens, sometimes favorable sometimes not so favorable but RP none the less. Take the good with the bad and enjoy the game.

Its beginning to clear things up. The part I think people are overlooking is the "strong" in some zones godmodding. Being vigilantes in font of guards and such, or making up laws that dont exist.

Heck in some areas attacking someone and there companion would be outright breaking the rules. IE:- "Punishments for Official Crimes may only be given to Player Characters by Dungeon Masters (DMs)"

Before I continue... I want to start by pointing out how you claim this is a board spectrum thing, but have now conceded the point to this being the region around FAI.

Secondly you are now claiming god modding is in effect, while disregardding previous mention by DM Ruling that they consider the summoning of certain creatures and walking around an area that would clearly be under watch by some local NPC force, as god modding the reaction of those NPC's to your summon.

I believe at this point you are facing a '2 wrongs don't make a right' scenario, if in fact the PC's are claiming to be the law of the area. If they are not and simply reacting to the summoned entity as their character would by slaying, banishing, turning, dismissing, etc... then they are reacting as would be expected of an adventurer who's goals are in the best interest of the realm. However, if they are simply slaying you outright for your summon, then we need further clarification. Same applies if they are attacking said summon simply because they 'hate dogs' or what have you.

The companion/summon/familiar issues I have witnessed are South of Baldur's Gate to the FAI, and south further before bere on the roads. Not in the cities or location where the laws of these cities make clear they apply to. (outside FAI was a focused example)

Regardless of FAI or BG. If your trying to lay out justice in FAI or its controled areas, you'd be breaking the rules. Same in BG. Unless your character has been designated to do so.

[DM Nephilim]

Here is a general rule of thumb that I use, but by no means reflects the entire DM team. If there are no NPC guards on the map, then it is pretty much lawless. If there are NPC guards, then there is law. The FAI is somewhat of an exception to this as Inside the walls of the FAI and just ourside the main gate are what Bently's gaurds patrol.

DMs have been known to have archers shoot at summons or polymorphed characters that run by but those are typically Undead or demon/devil in nature.

That being said, with all the issues with the new updates, I have been more lient for people who pop in at the spawn point with summons as they test the spells in the nexus, and some are bugged and they can't get rid of them till they rest, and they have to go in game to rest.

[AstralisAdept]

Here is a general rule of thumb that I use, but by no means reflects the entire DM team. If there are no NPC guards on the map, then it is pretty much lawless. If there are NPC guards, then there is law. The FAI is somewhat of an exception to this as Inside the walls of the FAI and just ourside the main gate are what Bently's gaurds patrol.

DMs have been known to have archers shoot at summons or polymorphed characters that run by but those are typically Undead or demon/devil in nature.

That being said, with all the issues with the new updates, I have been more lient for people who pop in at the spawn point with summons as they test the spells in the nexus, and some are bugged and they can't get rid of them till they rest, and they have to go in game to rest.

Thanks for the insight Neph!

[HazNpho]

Removed redundant to save on rereading already quoted.

The companion/summon/familiar issues I have witnessed are South of Baldur's Gate to the FAI, and south further before bere on the roads. Not in the cities or location where the laws of these cities make clear they apply to. (outside FAI was a focused example)

Regardless of FAI or BG. If your trying to lay out justice in FAI or its controled areas, you'd be breaking the rules. Same in BG.

Then you are talking about the wilds, outside the zone marked as FAI and south of the bridge at BG. Cloakwood and the area? If that is the case, all I would say is be careful what you summon. There are PC's that will attack on site undead, and abominations. Area's outside regular paths (where there is a physical road) are free game. Be careful of griefing yes, but griefing is not always the case.

If however you are talking about general roadways then anyone outright attacking certain creatures MAY be understandable in an attempt to protect merchants and traders upon the roads.

Rules of thumb about NPC's:
- Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there.
- Though it may not be common sense, consider that farmers/traders/travellers/merchants all travel the roads, and some don't get far by unhappy circumstance(dm events, placables scattered through the world, etc...) it is the adventurers that keep them safe most often, either hired or simply passing by.
- NPC Guards, Mercenaries, Bandits, etc... Are not always placed or active either, this is and has always been a limitation of the system to handle that many AI's or heartbeat scripts. Very few games place hoards of sprites to fill the space. It gets cluttered and often hinders play.

As a DM I always had fun catching people slipping on those three points. Normally it led to some great RP, but that said, even as a DM I had a life inside the game as a player, and a real life to contend with. So it's worth noting that just because DM's are busy, does not give the right to abuse said points and therefore 'puppetting' the NPC's.

At this point your argument needs details, are you championing the wilds, or are you championing your right to move freely with any creature/summon you so choose? Those two things are very different rules, and have different reactions from both players AND DM's.

P.S. As neph just posted, the issue I noticed at FAI while it could be considered a part of that, it was more that the user spawned in and went afk, disregarding RP from a handful of people first before any spell was cast.

EDIT: Red was hard on the eyes... Been a while since I have done a lot of forum type, sorry.

[AstralisAdept]

As a DM I always had fun catching people slipping on those three points. Normally it led to some great RP, but that said, even as a DM I had a life inside the game as a player, and a real life to contend with. So it's worth noting that just because DM's are busy, does not give the right to abuse said points and therefore 'puppetting' the NPC's.

At this point your argument needs details, are you championing the wilds, or are you championing your right to move freely with any creature/summon you so choose? Those two things are very different rules, and have different reactions from both players AND DM's.

I will reiterate. I'm not speaking about any specific incident. I speaking about several incidents. Some involving me, almost all of them not involving me other than witnessing the events.

Most right outside FAI, a few on the road just south of the kobold ruins, one in the BG grave yard, and another on the road right near Candle Deep(which I commend all the level 30s who sit around these areas harassing lowbies and there companions).

DMs have been known to have archers shoot at summons or polymorphed characters that run by but those are typically Undead or demon/devil in nature.

In my opinion this does not give players the right to flag and pvp in these places. Its the DMs call. Not a loop hole to harass someone.

[HazNpho]

As a DM I always had fun catching people slipping on those three points. Normally it led to some great RP, but that said, even as a DM I had a life inside the game as a player, and a real life to contend with. So it's worth noting that just because DM's are busy, does not give the right to abuse said points and therefore 'puppetting' the NPC's.

At this point your argument needs details, are you championing the wilds, or are you championing your right to move freely with any creature/summon you so choose? Those two things are very different rules, and have different reactions from both players AND DM's.

I will reiterate. I'm not speaking about any specific incident. I speaking about several incidents. Some involving me, almost all of them not involving me other than witnessing the events.

Most right outside FAI, a few on the road just south of the kobold ruins, one in the BG grave yard, and another on the road right near Candle Deep(which I commend all the level 30s who sit around these areas harassing lowbies and there companions).

Alright then for some points to sum down... (Will hold details on acting parties for the most part as details could change the outcome of events still)
Those right outside FAI, summoning of creatures other than a commonly tamed animal, is god moding of the FAI Guards, assuming they wouldn't attack you right off.
The roads just south of the kobold ruins unless I am mistaken is lawless grounds and currently has NPC Bandits and wildlife spawning?
The area outside Candle Keep though traditionally a powerful organization, would fall under lawless.
The area around BG Graveyard is under the laws of BG and subject to their terms. As their are 2 NPC guards right at the entrance, it should be assumed that summoning creatures that are considered unlawful or dangerous is godmodding NPC reaction again.

As for the 30's HARASSING(Your word) low level PC's, this SHOULD be brought up to a DM along with screenshots. I can comment that I did have a similar case though not regarding summons, of PC's in the higher 20's going after mine when I first started. Though it worked out in the end because I actually ended up being woven into a PC v PC conflict which I found was pretty good RP. DM's actually ended up getting involved in one event because the PC had been killed a few times and refused to accept IC consequences, instead he continued to grief me and my friends. It is for this reason that you should proceed to the DM's directly in such a case.

[AstralisAdept]

Those right outside FAI, summoning of creatures other than a commonly tamed animal, is god moding of the FAI Guards, assuming they wouldn't attack you right off.

Indeed. Just as well attacking a player for said summon/companion/familar would equally be godmodding and it needs to stop. They should report it to DMs etc. etc.

The roads just south of the kobold ruins unless I am mistaken is lawless grounds and currently has NPC Bandits and wildlife spawning?

Correct. So people should not be pretending to up hold laws or digging for a loop hole to pvp someone here (decent rp aside IE: Reactions to creatures, hatred for undead etc etc).

*note:Right outside FAI has bandits that waylay you.

The area around BG Graveyard is under the laws of BG and subject to their terms. As their are 2 NPC guards right at the entrance, it should be assumed that summoning creatures that are considered unlawful or dangerous is godmodding NPC reaction again.

Once again another player has no role here other than reporting to a DM etc. etc. Unless he has been IC contracted or authorized to uphold the laws in that specific instance.

[Hawke]

Technically the person starting a PvP over a summon/familiar/companion (citing a law or not) is the one godmodding. They're breaking every bit of law that the other person would be.

Actually it isn't god modding killing a summons OR a "wild/evil animal" It's called keeping the roads safe.

Remember, humans (well elves, dwarves,planetouched etc) are what matter, not those lesser beings.

The rules actually support these actions as you posted earlier. You know, since I don't skim through the posts.

[DM Dialectic]

Chiming in here to say that the transition note regarding Flaming Fist keeping an eye on the FAI is outdated. The outskirts of the Friendly Arm Inn that's not in front of the portcullis is considered a lawless place.

Here is a general rule of thumb that I use, but by no means reflects the entire DM team. If there are no NPC guards on the map, then it is pretty much lawless. If there are NPC guards, then there is law. The FAI is somewhat of an exception to this as Inside the walls of the FAI and just ourside the main gate are what Bently's gaurds patrol.

DMs have been known to have archers shoot at summons or polymorphed characters that run by but those are typically Undead or demon/devil in nature.

That being said, with all the issues with the new updates, I have been more lient for people who pop in at the spawn point with summons as they test the spells in the nexus, and some are bugged and they can't get rid of them till they rest, and they have to go in game to rest.

A few more notes on IC NPC Duchal law enforcement in the wild areas of the server between Baldur's Gate and Northern Amn, with the Friendly Arm Inn as a different political island between.

-The Grand Dukes of Baldur's Gate have a strong political claim to the lands inside the walls of Baldur's Gate as well as the Farmlands nearby the city (these Farmlands and the major entry points to them that are NPC guarded by guards loyal to the Dukes or Flaming Fist are known as the "environs" of Baldur's Gate), as well as the lands all the way south to the border with Northern Amn on the north bank of the river north of Beregost. The western border of this claim is the Sea of Swords coast and may even extend into the sea as well. The eastern border runs west and north of Gullykin in the southeast and without clarity (to the public IC) either goes through or around the Woods of Sharpteeth to the north until hitting the River Chiontar and then follows rough proximity of the river west until back in the area of Baldur's Gate, encompassing the Fields of the Dead on the way. The Friendly Arm Inn would be an island of non-Duchal political claim within this region, but the ruler of the Friendly Arm Inn is on very friendly terms with the Grand Dukes of Baldur's Gate.

-If a major foreign and non-friendly power were to start to politically interfere in this area of Duchal claim without permission (say the government of Amn tried to setup a military base in the wilds between the Friendly Arm Inn and Wyrm's Crossing without Duchal permission), the Grand Dukes would likely defend this claim with the threat of force or actual force. This political dimension is different from whether Duchal law is regularly enforced in wild areas claimed by the Dukes.

-As DM Ditto implied, outside of regularly patrolled areas by NPCs loyal to the Dukes or the Flaming Fist, Duchal law is not regularly enforced in all areas of their political claim that are "wild" (as in not regularly patrolled areas by NPCs loyal to the Dukes or the Flaming Fist, which in game terms means that there are no permanent NPC guards on a game map for it to be considered an entirely wild map area) and alleged crimes in wild areas not regularly patrolled by NPC guards loyal to the Dukes, but still within the area of Duchal political claim, are often not prosecuted by Duchal magistrates either. It is certainly possible though that if an occasional Flaming Fist patrol happened to go past a necromancer with a skeleton buddy on the Trade Way in the wilds claimed by the Dukes that they would be held to account under Duchal law.

-In the case of the Friendly Arm Inn, as DM Nephilim implied, inside the walls of the FAI and just outside the main gate are where the Friendly Arm Inn guards frequently patrol and therefore where the laws of the Friendly Arm Inn, which are distinct from Duchal laws of Baldur's Gate, are enforced IC. Where there may be other NPC guards in otherwise wild map areas could mean that NPC enforced law applies there as well, but what NPC enforced law depends on the NPCs guarding.

-Keep in mind that Duchal law IC is ONLY enforceable and judicially processed by NPCs loyal to the Grand Dukes. There are no player characters able to charge, prosecute, convict, and punish other player characters for violations of Duchal law IC. This being said, NPC guards and NPC public areas in civilized areas of Duchal control should not be metagamed to assume that just because a DM was not around that no one saw an IC violation of Duchal law and did not react IC. Doing otherwise is in fact an OOC violation of NPC metagaming and godmoding rules. Player characters can certainly act as witnesses and send in reports to the Duchal authorities on any legal wrongdoing allegedly seen in regularly NPC guarded areas where Duchal law is typically enforced, but only NPCs (DMs) determine the legal outcome of Duchal law, not players.

As a result, the best way to deal with reporting perceived IC law violations when a DM is not present on the scene in game is to PM the DM team on the forums screenshots and an IC/OOC report of what happened. The best way to IC violate the law of a local NPC guarded area without metagaming or godmoding NPCs and violating server rules is to PM the DM team with a player request asking to do so with DM permission first: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=48188.

[AstralisAdept]

Technically the person starting a PvP over a summon/familiar/companion (citing a law or not) is the one godmodding. They're breaking every bit of law that the other person would be.

Actually it isn't god modding killing a summons OR a "wild/evil animal" It's called keeping the roads safe.

Remember, humans (well elves, dwarves,planetouched etc) are what matter, not those lesser beings.

The rules actually support these actions as you posted earlier. You know, since I don't skim through the posts.

- Punishments for Official Crimes may only be given to Player Characters by Dungeon Masters (DMs).

-Never may one enforce the laws of the keep without the involvement of the Friendly Arm's guardsmen.

[Calodan]

- Punishments for Official Crimes may only be given to Player Characters by Dungeon Masters (DMs).

-Never may one enforce the laws of the keep without the involvement of the Friendly Arm's guardsmen.

You are taking these rules completely out of context and also you keep contradicting yourself by saying it is not in lawed lands then saying it is by posting these rules.....So which is it? Because if it is not near FAI or BG or AMN territory then they are not breaking rules to RP odd reaction to your summon/companion that is not a dog, cat or rabbit. Then if in a area that would be under law where the rules you posted 'MAY" apply depending on DM supervision and RP of the area as appropriate considering guards around your summons/companion that is not a dog, cat or rabbit would have been destroyed by the guards anyway.

Now the fire near the entrance to the Cloakwood is a point of contention still it is just up the road from the guards of FAI but just down the road of the guards of Silver Rose Keep. This is about the only area where I can see is a questionable area that is hard to define for the purpose of rules and who enforces them. Otherwise the area in front of the keep is guarded and would be patrolled as such. The area inside FAI and directly in front of the gate entrance area are under FAI rule. Bentley Mirrorshade runs it and his guards do what they are paid to do.

[AstralisAdept]

You are taking these rules completely out of context and also you keep contradicting yourself by saying it is not in lawed lands then saying it is by posting these rules

How so, they're perfectly in context. A player has no right OOC or IC to pvp someone under the excuse it is "against the law here".

FAI for example, -Never may one enforce the laws of the keep without the involvement of the Friendly Arm's guardsmen.

If a player is god modding by having a summon/familiar/companion in the presence of guards, it is not the players role to flag them and pvp. Ells they would be God Modding themselves by breaking the local law.

Because if it is not near FAI or BG or AMN territory then they are not breaking rules to RP odd reaction to your summon/companion that is not a dog, cat or rabbit.

At no point have I condemned (for whatever thats worth ^ ^) odd reactions to summons/familiars/companions in lawless areas. I take issue with people claiming the same as above.

Then if in a area that would be under law where the rules you posted 'MAY" apply depending on DM supervision and RP of the area as appropriate considering guards around your summons/companion that is not a dog, cat or rabbit would have been destroyed by the guards anyway.

At this point a player is already god modding by having the summon/familiar/companion in front of guards in an area its considered unlawful. Basic rules of play have been broken and thus the RP is about as valid as *stabs your eyeball ripping it out, spits in the empty socket and says "Suck it!"*. This behavior should report, it does not give the right to flag pvp and equally be wrong.

The area inside FAI and directly in front of the gate entrance area are under FAI rule. Bentley Mirrorshade runs it and his guards do what they are paid to do.

Exactly the guards do what they are paid to do, not random players taking action against things they don't like or understand.

[Hawke]

Technically the person starting a PvP over a summon/familiar/companion (citing a law or not) is the one godmodding. They're breaking every bit of law that the other person would be.

Actually it isn't god modding killing a summons OR a "wild/evil animal" It's called keeping the roads safe.

Remember, humans (well elves, dwarves,planetouched etc) are what matter, not those lesser beings.

The rules actually support these actions as you posted earlier. You know, since I don't skim through the posts.

- Punishments for Official Crimes may only be given to Player Characters by Dungeon Masters (DMs).

-Never may one enforce the laws of the keep without the involvement of the Friendly Arm's guardsmen.

Ok.

Let me stop you right there.

I would never do any of this, whether it is in my PCs behavior or not, because it is a douche move..

1. You can kill ANY summons at ANY time.

2. The ridiculous "leave or die" RP out can be handed to a player any time.... and then a thumping would commence. It's lame, but it is allowed.

3. The fact the summons/companion (except dog) is in the purview of the guards, that is god modding. So if you have a Hellhound right outside FAI entrance... you are godmodding, because the guards would kill it...and probably the player as well.


Players should be respectful of others, but if someone is breaking your immersion outside FAI or anywhere... ignore them. If it REALLY bothers you. Take a screenshot and PM the DM group here on the forums.


It just feels like this thread is going on in a cycle.... You can look up my posts where a "paladin" killed my Druid's dog companion because he was in FAI. He was wrong on all counts as he did not do the following:

1. Mind the PvP initiation rules, as there was no RP out or consent given"
2. The dog is not considered to be "monstrous or a wild animal"
3. He attacked something considered to be a player (companions are to be treated as players) in front of the guards, therefore godmodding
4. He self appointed himself to "clean up" the wrong outside FAI.

I was pissed, mostly cause the dog's name was removed after the death and never came back.

But the rules are there as a guideline. We, the community help police ourselves and educate the unintiated, and report those who refuse to conform and let the DMs make the ruling of right or wrong and execute the punishment, if any.

In closing, relax. Not like anyone lost any xp, gold or equipment. Retcon the event and just move forward.