Balancing Bards and FS?

[DM Golem]

Opened on request

[Dawrf]

One of the reasons for the current pyramid is the current monsters.

It is a combination of monsters and equipment.

For example, a very long time ago, believe it or not, 'Hipster Rogues' were at the top of the server's food pyramid. The mobs had low amounts of hit points and no detection whatsoever, hence a rogue could just pop-in-and-out of stealth and kill things with a single sneak attack flurry or two. It worked even in PvP - since most of the players had nothing invested in detection.

(First flurry, break away, hips, and repeat until victory.)

Naturally, the PvP side eventually gave rise to our server's healthy population of Bards. Which resulted in the more numerous Hipsters Rogues demand of more stealth equipment, then it to be countered with spot equipment, then even more stealth equipment, then little more spot equipment... Greater emphasis on UMD... Etc.

It just kept barreling out of control until people grew royally fed up with the 'Hipster Rogues' and we our got mobs with detection skills, and those random scripts that grant even more detection.

And thus, 'Hipster Rogues' tend to be at the bottom of the food chain.

Now, when NWN2 first came out, a build called 'Kaze no Kama' was the best thing you could have. It was basically a Monk/Fighter/Invisible Blade build with the meager amount of 18~ attacks per round. But, since there is no equipment to actually build it on the server, it has been more or less forgotten. Or is it... Hmn... *Looks a the implemented PRCs.*

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But back to the actual topic, and to the attempts of 'balancing' Bards and EDM Favored Souls.

What makes Bards so great are more less:
- Curse song (More AC to you.)
- Hymn/Song of Requiem (Deals lot of sonic damage and provides healing to you.)
- Their selection of arcane spells.
- Correct inspiration for the situation

Hymn/Song of Requiem have been toned down a notch. There is a limit to how many monsters it will damage, how many friendlies are healed, and the damage dealt/amount healed is no longer 2 x (Perform Skill). The damage dealt is (Bard level + Perform skill) against a single enemey, and amount healed is (Bard level + Perform skill)/2.

Now, it was mentioned bosses have 50% Sonic immunity. It can be raised to 100%, I think it has already been that at some point or another - but even still, Curse Song and those Arcane buffs with the correct inspiration make any Strength based Bard a deadly foe.

If you are not going to touch Arcane spells, then the only option is to make enemies cast 'Silence' on the ground. Bard can move, so for silence to work, you would a custom spell or ability for a 'Greater Silence' spell to negate inspirations and songs. But unfortunately it would also prevent spell-casting from all casters without the right set of epic feats. (So it is unlikely to happen.)


As for Favored Souls they live and dye by their buffs,
- Which they got a ton of.

Now, some of the best buffs have been already nerfed down. Durations touched, effects reduced, etc. So as it was asked before, what to spell should we nerf this time around?

Now, since most EDM Favored Souls are level 30 casters, if they are easily dispelled again and again, so is everyone other caster too. (It would hurt all casters, so it is unlikely to happen.)

As for Favored Soul class abilities, feats, haste, damage reduction? Those are really not needed with their spell list - and their removal is not going fling the current balance in any direction.



So honestly, the question is, what can be do without screwing over everyone else?



I've thought a while, and this the only thing I can come up with;
[*]How about more affordable 'Epic equipment' in the stores?

[Calodan]

How about more affordable 'Epic equipment' in the stores?

I don't know about affordable but equipment of the better nature is being put into special vendors that are due to be put into the server some time after all this new stuff in the big update is ironed out. There are at least 2-3 new vendors that are to be put in with varying high end equipment.

In other news please do not nerf FvS. I love Kory very much. Despite my ill fated RP to make him from a fighter to arcanist to divine caster. I know this is cringe worthy RP but he was my first PC I even attempted to actually do more with. I would never do this with any of my other PCs now but Kory was a Frankenstein anyway being my first PC here.

[AC81]

You could make FS unable to multiclass. A lot of their power comes from choosing the right dip. Granted they'll still be tough but that will remove divine saves, AC and EDM. Maybe also make them DM application. There really shouldn't be many FS's walking around ...
Also, I'd agree with installing epic shops. Or maybe a crafter NPC that allows you to add or remove enchantments at a (huge) cost.

[NegInfinity]

You could make FS unable to multiclass. A lot of their power comes from choosing the right dip. Granted they'll still be tough but that will remove divine saves, AC and EDM. Maybe also make them DM application. There really shouldn't be many FS's walking around ...
Also, I'd agree with installing epic shops. Or maybe a crafter NPC that allows you to add or remove enchantments at a (huge) cost.

Bad idea. It will kill stormlords. The server needs more stormlords.

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I would prefer if instead of "let's NERF something" people concentrated on "let's improve or ADD something".

Any attempt to "balance" a class always smell like an attempt to ruin somebody's fun to me. It stinks too much of MMOs. If it was described this or that way in PnP, just keep it unchanged.

[Theodore01]

You could make FS unable to multiclass. A lot of their power comes from choosing the right dip. Granted they'll still be tough but that will remove divine saves, AC and EDM.

Thats the right direction to go. Still powerful but much more boring

[AC81]

You could make FS unable to multiclass. A lot of their power comes from choosing the right dip. Granted they'll still be tough but that will remove divine saves, AC and EDM. Maybe also make them DM application. There really shouldn't be many FS's walking around ...
Also, I'd agree with installing epic shops. Or maybe a crafter NPC that allows you to add or remove enchantments at a (huge) cost.

Bad idea. It will kill stormlords. The server needs more stormlords.

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I would prefer if instead of "let's NERF something" people concentrated on "let's improve or ADD something".

Any attempt to "balance" a class always smell like an attempt to ruin somebody's fun to me. It stinks too much of MMOs. If it was described this or that way in PnP, just keep it unchanged.

It's a nerf for FS's sure, but when you look at what they still get ... geez, come on. It's a completely BS class tbh. Sounds made up or something that should be reserved for npc's.

Stormlords can still use cleric, Druid or spirit shaman can't they? Or am I missing something? Also - how were Favoured Souls described in PnP?

[NegInfinity]

It's a nerf for FS's sure, but when you look at what they still get ... geez, come on.

Nope. You have a problem with FS - deal with him/her/it using in-game/RP means.

Sounds made up

It is a fantasy world. All classes are made up.

Also - how were Favoured Souls described in PnP?

Complete divine, page 6.

The favored soul follows the path of the cleric but is able to
channel divine power with surprising ease. She is able to
perform the same tasks as her fellow divine spellcasters but
with virtually no study; to her, it comes naturally. Scholars
wonder if favored souls have traces of outsider blood from
unions, holy or unholy, centuries ago and generations
removed. Others suggest that divine training of the proper
type awakens the ability, or that favored souls are simply
imbued with their gifts by their gods when they begin
the cleric’s path. In any case, favored souls cast their spells
naturally, as much through force of personality as through
study. Though this gives them extraordinary divine abili-
ties no normal person could ever match, they see their gift
as a call to action, and so in some ways may lag behind their
more studious colleagues.
Adventures: Favored souls are often loners, wandering
the land serving their deities. They are welcomed by their
churches but treated as unusual and are sometimes misun-
derstood.

harisma determines how many spells the
favored soul can cast per day. Wisdom determines how
hard the favored soul’s spells are to resist (see Spells, below).
In addition to using Charisma and Wisdom for spellcasting,
a favored soul also benefi ts from high Dexterity, Strength,
and Constitution scores.

FS is a loner, more likely to be of outsider blood (aasimar/tiefling, I guess), cha for number of spells, wis for DC.

weapon focus level 3, energy resistance level 5, weapon specialization lv 12, wings level 17, damage reduction level 20. Does not prepare spells in advance.

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Meaning soloing the area as aasimar fs would fit class description pretty much perfectly.
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FS is also an extremely boring class to play, unless you invest into RP aspect.

I do not see a reason to nerf either class. It adds exaclty nothing to roleplay, improves nothing, and call for FS/bard nerf sounds like a class envy issue to me.

Also, idea of "balancing" DND sounds silly to me. DND is not balanced, some classes are stronger, some are weaker. It is not a mmo, and it is not designed to give everybody a fair chance. You pick character, you figure out how to survive using this character and skills.

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I'd rather ADD something new. Acolyte of the Skin, Effigy Master, Wu-Jen, Alienist, etc. There are lots of fun classes and possibilities.

[matelener]

The root of all evil is the Divine Power spell which makes BAB progression of any cleric / fs build completely irrelevant. Two things are happening:

- Due to Divine Power (mostly) and other cumulative buffs cleric/fs surpasses high BAB classes at their primary role

- Divine PRCs that are supposed to make a cleric more specialized in combat (like Hospitaler or Warpriest) are because of Divine Power useless, they gimp cleric's spellcasting giving him in return high BAB which he doesn't need.

Therefore, I think that removing Divine Power completely from the game would be quite a good solution. Some other things could be touched as well such as nerfing Death Ward to its pnp version (which is without the Ability Drain immunity) and making Stone Body / Iron Body slow unaffected by Freedom of Movement.

[AC81]

Gee Neg, you sure can manipulate an argument I'll give you that!

I actually have a bard pc , so there is no class envy. (Also, if you wanted to make bards a touch more 'balanced' make it so songs remove inspirations)

I'm not trying to promote server wide balance, I've always said casters (especially arcane casters) should be at the top of the tree. And yes Neg, I understand that this game is all 'made up' so ease up on the passive aggressive replies. What I was trying to say was that the FS class seems thrown together with little care, but really, I think you knew what I meant.

Above any other class, it is one that could use some adjustment. I'm not saying it will happen or that Players of FS's affect me negatively in any way - they don't. It is however a class that I believe should be monitored. Probably the best way is to make FS's application only. Give current players of FS's a time period to apply to have their build/RP approved and then move on. No mechanical changes needed. That will also allow players such as yourself to explore all those fun FS RP possibilities! And hey, that way you could still get to dip stormlord, thus doing your bit to save that endangered PrC!

[NegInfinity]

Gee Neg, you sure can manipulate an argument I'll give you that!

See, that's the stuff you learn from playing (lawful) evil a lot.

Probably the best way is to make FS's application only.

I would not object to that, since I care about RP experience the most and divine casters are expected to know their deity.

The root of all evil is the Divine Power spell which

The root of all evil is accelerated time, actually. It screws up relative spell power.
Right now 1 hour has 5 minutes in it. Because of it, last ditch power that lasts few rounds becomes a more viable battle option compared to something that can last hours. I once ran into server that had 1 ingame hour == 1 irl hour time speed, it was vastly different experience, there level 1 mages were actually useful.

Unfortunately, there's nothing that can be done about accelerated time. Due to IRL stuff people can't have "realistic" rest times (where one "rest" would take 8 irl hours and you would pretty much be allowed to ward yourself once per day).

Running more "no rest" DM events would help, though. Because once their ran out of wards... well, you know what happens.

[NeOmega]

Honestly, everyone is talking about the dispel fix as being broken, I just see it as re-balancing the power of casters to be risky again.

After all, it has become crystal clear to me, at the moment, caster builds are the best builds, period.

[Young Werther]

Honestly, everyone is talking about the dispel fix as being broken, I just see it as re-balancing the power of casters to be risky again.

In PvE if you can identify the dispel mobs you can just silence them. Quickened silence isn't hard to manage. Just make sure the mob is in the aoe and wrangle them. Also in a party it works to bait out the dispel on your friend with no buffs. Or they can disrupt the mobs casting which isn't hard that hard to do. Maybe people should buy some wand of silences to go with their buff wands.

[joleda]

The root of all evil is the Divine Power spell which makes BAB progression of any cleric / fs build completely irrelevant. Two things are happening:

- Due to Divine Power (mostly) and other cumulative buffs cleric/fs surpasses high BAB classes at their primary role

- Divine PRCs that are supposed to make a cleric more specialized in combat (like Hospitaler or Warpriest) are because of Divine Power useless, they gimp cleric's spellcasting giving him in return high BAB which he doesn't need.

Therefore, I think that removing Divine Power completely from the game would be quite a good solution. Some other things could be touched as well such as nerfing Death Ward to its pnp version (which is without the Ability Drain immunity) and making Stone Body / Iron Body slow unaffected by Freedom of Movement.

^^

[AlwaysSummer Day]

It's interesting that when I asked why all the monsters get extra AB against dwarves the reasoning I got back was that dwarves were OP and had to be nerfed. The simple fact of the matter is events tend to end up geared towards the power level of FS and bards.

I am currently in an event and the boss mob is dealing 200-300 points of damage a round with over 70 AB and that damage is assuming no crits are landed. The mobs are created with the presumption that if they are not exceedingly powerful the FS and Bards will roflstomp them immediately. This means that all warriors are basically worthless. Even casters are relegated to a secondary roll. The bards have soooooo many skills on top of their fighting prowess and magic that any rolls the DM asks for are likewise suffering from a bloated DC.