Rant for a True Role Play Experience.

[The Whistler]

Every active DM probably spent at least 5-10 hours a week on administrative tasks on the forums as well (5-10 being the low end, I know a few who likely did twice this or more). So by the time you put in your 5-20 hours of forum work, you're probably only down to a few windows of free time in which to actually log in and DM and run events because you have a job you have to wake up and go to the next day, and in some cases a family you have to worry about feeding. Shame on them for not quitting their jobs so they could have enough time to set up epic armies for you all day er'ryday.

Then maybe, just maybe it is finally time that administrative tasks are separated from DMing. This blurring of authority and storytelling has led to both DM strain and burnout and has cultivated an air of obeisance towards the DMs in the playerbase. When you have a complaint about how a DM handled a particular IC scenario, with whom do you lodge a complaint ? That's right, the DM team. If you feel you've been griefed by a certain DM ? You can probably guess the answer by now.

Yes, there are multiple echelons in the DM pyramid that you can take a complaint to but it's ultimately a DM that handles and helps resolve your grievance. Almost all of us can think of at least one case where shit's been swept under the rug in the interest of saving one DM. And who can blame the team ? Omertà aside, DMs are a rare commodity that's getting rarer every day. And it is my humble belief that this blurring of responsibilities is contributing to the burnout.

I am sorry for derailing the thread but I felt like this needed saying. Administrative tasks shouldn't be a valid excuse for DM laziness. The DMs should work towards changing this system.

[DM Ditto]

[Separate administrative tasks from DMing]

That is an interesting suggestion and I will float it to the team to see what comes of it.

edit: I would also add that if issues come up involving a DM, the protocol is to contact the Head DMs, who handle the administrative work and issues with individual DMs, among other tasks.

[Rask]

[Separate administrative tasks from DMing]

That is an interesting suggestion and I will float it to the team to see what comes of it.

edit: I would also add that if issues come up involving a DM, the protocol is to contact the Head DMs, who handle the administrative work and issues with individual DMs, among other tasks.

Gotta agree with you, that whole separation thing is a super idea. I know that DM "Burn out" from doing tons of admin work and never getting to actually DM has been a constant theme and a big part of why DM's left in the past when I was more active here.

At the same time though, having a seperate "DM Team" simply to do administrative tasks sounds like not the most fun position to have as a volunteer. So i think it would be more of a matter of actually getting a few people who would be willing to do that. Maybe have 2 full on head DM's, and 2 Assistant head DM's? One Each on a somewhat different time zone? Since they seem to do the most admin stuff why put all that on one person when you can put it on 4?

[Silver_Lining]

In my experience, the ONLY way to enforce true RP is to induce a very low XP and very low magic world. What this does is make the game less about grinding to the top, and THEN RPing, and more about RP as development right from level 1.

I whole heartedly wish I could agree with that statement.
However...
I am the former HDM of a server that was called FRC Cormyr (The one in NWN2, not nwn1)
Our server was very slow leveling (what most of our players would call painfully slow) and the intention of the server's creator, Sin, was to create the exact same kind of atmosphere you describe. Where RP was the drive for logging in, not XP, and by the time anyone reached epic levels, in a year+, the word 'epic' would actually mean something rather than simply being commonplace. Unfortunately, the result was the staff constantly being told players were leaving b/c they didn't want to invest the OOC time at that pace to level, and would rather just go to a faster leveling server and rp there.

Sin eventually, after too many left due to the slow leveling, took down the server to 'redo' the XP system. Unfortunately, he fell ill and the server never came back up. But what I learned and came to understand from the experience, is that many players feel as though they need those levels, for whatever reason, to feel as though their pc and rp is somehow justified by the numbers. I can't be sure as to why, but it seems a common feeling for many. As does the frustration when they don't see big xp numbers rolling when they do 'grind'.

I'm sad to say that just recently I logged into the server. There were about 12 people on the server at the time, about maybe 9 of them were in the Nexus (OOC area). When I asked 'why' everyone was just standing around, I was told it was because of an upcoming rolleback. They explained that any XP they got RPing or Grinding would be lost. So I asked "Why not just go in and RP just to RP, and not for XP?" and not one person seemed to have any interest what so ever in doing so. I was shocked, to say the least, that so many ( 9/12'ish) would opt to stand around and talk ooc instead of rp, while logged into an rp server -just b/c there was no xp reward for rping- at that moment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps, an option for some of those that want a more meaningful experience.
Who want to lose sometimes, and crave the excitement of that risk, would be to ask the DMs if they would please run a Permadeath event for those people. I'm sure if enough players were interested in that, one of the DM's would likely, happily do so for you. They're pretty good with stuff like that when requested of them.

[trogers2]

Secondly i would personally love being a DM for BG. As i said before i worked with Blood Lust everyday in Developing monsters, plots, and coding for the server and we made an excellent team. (As you can see in the NWN2 version of the army preview picture.)

But I believe my chances of becoming one are slim to non. Iv'e had a lot of problems in terms with the DM's and their ruling with events and Server Rules in the past. I believe they see me more as a trouble maker then an actual player on the server. But that's my own fault for disagreeing with them and causing more trouble then its worth when i shouldn't have in the past.

I totally agree with you kkrazlite, as a passionate DM in another game (over 10 years) story and RP are always top on my vital list, I have applied to be a DM for the sole reason of trying to breathe some life into the server and make it feel more alive instead of just spawning monsters in your face - if I do manage to pull it off (I hope) I am totally down with teaming up with you (although we must keep is a secret from players), maybe we can pool our ideas together and come up with some great storylines and RP.

To be blunt with you it is a time and energy thing. Every choice i offer a group implies 50 more. If you want the Pnp experience you crave then it actually reduces my workload since i no longer have to mind if the players actually win or lose. In fact the plot can collapse entirely and the server has consequences as a result.

As a serious question - is that kind of long duration heavily player driven consequences role play what you are after? If so, be prepared to lose. All the time.

This is just my humble opinion as an ADM and obviously represents only my own. In fact that would be my preferred style of role playing as a DM.

I am still a DM in that game, although we call them STs (storytellers) I am a very 'fair' DM/ST (I host every Friday) and typically my players can not die, unless they do something very, very stupid - you can argue that this takes out the fun of the games, but that is not always the case.

The problem is players want to feel special and important, a bad roll or a bad move - which leads to your character dying is not really the best way to handle the issue, I speak from experience. All this will do is anger, alienate or push away players - Some might want this, but it will open up a huge blackhole in the community.

But does that make the RP invalid? It all depends on the storylines, I enforce challage and loss/risk through the possible death of vital NPCs, potential kidnapping/prisoner of player, chance of loss of plot item/plot item destoryed, chance to get lost, chance to get sick/virus etc... etc... These things can make the RP just (if not better) as good without enforcing death on a player

"

We all want to feel like something we are not, a hero

"

I could write up some great RP storylines (server based, not guild based) on the spot, ofcause the longer I have to prepare the better storylines I can come up with; here is an example that I would set up in under half an hour:

I would target the trade roads, spawn a few female NPCs who approch players walking down, said players would learn that their hisbands left them and were acting strangely.

Players would learn that the two demon queen seduced male NPCs but are now fleeing - they find the portal but can only enter one portal to one of the male NPCs, meaning the other would be killed by the demon - players are forced to pick who to save and who to die, or to do nothing at all.

I would reward players for finding a creative soloution and saving both NPCs (hard but possible)

The players are then tasked with reporting this news to the female NPCs.

Possible risks here:

- Players can end up failing horribly and lose both male NPCs
- Having to deal with one/or two deaths, reporting it to family
- Possible risk of temporarily getting lost and having to play an alt (rare)

Death doesn't break RP, RP breaks RP - Games like The Last Of Us, Final Fantasy, Red Dead Redemption have a RELOAD button when you die, but it doesn't make the story any less engadging - it is the qauilty of RP that makes or breaks the game, not the risk of death.

[RagingPeace]

I'm sad to say that just recently I logged into the server. There were about 12 people on the server at the time, about maybe 9 of them were in the Nexus (OOC area). When I asked 'why' everyone was just standing around, I was told it was because of an upcoming rolleback. They explained that any XP they got RPing or Grinding would be lost. So I asked "Why not just go in and RP just to RP, and not for XP?" and not one person seemed to have any interest what so ever in doing so. I was shocked, to say the least, that so many ( 9/12'ish) would opt to stand around and talk ooc instead of rp, while logged into an rp server -just b/c there was no xp reward for rping- at that moment.

I would like to note I was one of said people, and we were only about 4-5. We were chatting with two new players of the server, who were eager to get started on leveling, but we adviced against it due to the database rollback. We suggested they explore the world or go read up on the forum, but something had gone wrong and they hadn't recieved their confirmation email, and we were trying to sort it out. It is true though, that I answered you that most of my RP on that char was related to killing something. My char is a tiefling that wanders, and the only RP I do on him is usually related to being on the road. We kept the new players company in the nexus to tell them a bit about the server and such.

It's not an as sorry story as it may sound like

[Snarfy]

I was shocked, to say the least, that so many ( 9/12'ish) would opt to stand around and talk ooc instead of rp, while logged into an rp server -just b/c there was no xp reward for rping- at that moment.

At the risk of sounding pessimistic, I'm not surprised by this at all. Say what you will about the big update, but the general playing emphasis/experience has seen a noted shift away from RP and towards mechanics since it went through. Which is not to say that there wasn't a plethora of XP'ing via grinding, or a profound lack of RP, going on before that but, IMHO, such sweeping mechanical changes were naturally going to exacerbate the disparity between RP'ing and XP'ing. Factor in the notable exodus/hiatus'/QC'ing of a dozen or two long-time players(many of whom are members of notable guilds), then add a dozen or three new players to the mix, and... well, here we are.

As for a "true" roleplay experience, and I can only offer my perspective here, but I sincerely believe that any players looking for truly meaningful and immersive roleplay will struggle to find it unless they are willing to either search long and hard for it, or dig really deep and work to create it for themselves. The good RP is out there, but it's not easy to find.

My first death on this server was from a non-consensual pvp encounter outside of the FAI. -snip- My first death was completely out of the blue, no warning at all with zero discernible RP reason from what I'm assuming was a max-level character.

This is the kind of thing that really pisses me off to read. Unfortunately, I believe the biggest obstacle the playerbase currently faces is, and I'll be totally blunt here, the apparent casual disregard/ignorance towards the server setting, lore, and, last but not least, the rules. It is, quite frankly, embarrassing to see these repeated irresponsible/rule and immersion-breaking instances on a weekly basis(... or maybe I'm just unlucky that way). And I'm not speaking of the behavior of only new players, but by players who have been here long enough to simply know better than to disregard such. These players should really be doing the opposite, and that is: leading by example. Fostering meaningful roleplay shouldn't necessarily have to start from the top down, but it sure does go a long way in helping to maintain and uphold the quality of RP on the server.

[Steve]

Don't forget OOC bias, Snarfman! That can kill off RP faster than a dwarf can drink a liter of ale!

You want to know what I think, regarding generating "better" RP that suits BOTH the game (D&D) and the setting (Forgotten Realms)? A level-regardless risk vs. reward balance. Permadeath is only interesting if the possible reward is equal to the risk. R v. R balanced makes any level fully enjoyable—and totally RP-able—because of the fair challenge inherent in great balance, and as I see it, that is why anyone plays games in the first place (besides the obvious RL escapism...but that's another topic).

[kkrazlite]

Secondly i would personally love being a DM for BG. As i said before i worked with Blood Lust everyday in Developing monsters, plots, and coding for the server and we made an excellent team. (As you can see in the NWN2 version of the army preview picture.)

But I believe my chances of becoming one are slim to non. Iv'e had a lot of problems in terms with the DM's and their ruling with events and Server Rules in the past. I believe they see me more as a trouble maker then an actual player on the server. But that's my own fault for disagreeing with them and causing more trouble then its worth when i shouldn't have in the past.

I totally agree with you kkrazlite, as a passionate DM in another game (over 10 years) story and RP are always top on my vital list, I have applied to be a DM for the sole reason of trying to breathe some life into the server and make it feel more alive instead of just spawning monsters in your face - if I do manage to pull it off (I hope) I am totally down with teaming up with you (although we must keep is a secret from players), maybe we can pool our ideas together and come up with some great storylines and RP.

I look forward to working with you if I get the chance. I have sent in my request to become a DM as well. And i can see a great change in the the overall game play, lore, and community if i get the chance to work with you and all the other DM's in the matter of :



We will see what comes of it when the DM's choose their new champions to sit upon the thrones and make new and interesting situations and story to those who are looking for it on the server. Because as you can see from this thread there ARE people who are looking for those DM's who like to provide atmosphere and dramatic game play to BGTSCC and i'm sure they will agree with me in saying. "We need a place for everyone in BGTSCC". No matter if their "Power Builders" "Strict / Hardcore Role Players." Or their simply here to escape from their lives outside of BG. With DM's who will provide that sort of aspect to everyone no matter their choice in party, guild, or lore it truely will begin to shine that "True RP" flavor to everyone who seeks it.

We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future.

[Evilar]

"Silver_Lining" wrote

A whole lot of good points that I had a hard time breaking down but your point about your sadness that some people are focused on XP and to be sure to retain it above roleplaying makes me a bit cautious and sad as well.

I hope to be a part of group that are more interested in roleplaying than anything and rewarded for it.

[Evilar]

Don't forget OOC bias, Snarfman! That can kill off RP faster than a dwarf can drink a liter of ale!
You want to know what I think, regarding generating "better" RP that suits BOTH the game (D&D) and the setting (Forgotten Realms)? A level-regardless risk vs. reward balance.

I like your point Steve (and several others you made in this thread) it just I think hard to find people that will agree to that because it will take the kind of planning that an Elite L.O.L team does (kind of .
- Metagaming is always the temptation without a lot of scouting and gathering of information prior to any type of forays or gambits.
- Also, the rewards along with the comparable risks have to be made available and that is a DM area.

[Steve]

Well, if you have a long-time Player of BGTSCC joining in a new Campaign that starts at lvl 1 with a bunch of other, and mixed (old & new) Players, it is totally possible that the Players can offer the rewards, themselves (NeOmega has offered as much in his recent posts, for example).

Risk v. reward is, again, kinda dependent on what the "group" or community finds valuable. Some find a value in really, really, really cheating Death with their PC's actions, some find reward in that Longsword of Instant Elven Death Ray (+1,000,000). So like I wrote before, some form of "contract" is nice to talk about, among the Group that are getting together.

Actually, it can be quite simple. The easiest way to begin is to simply state "no grinding." Boom. You now have a more traditional D&D adventure group to RP within. Add on a few "rules" like: regular gaming times/hours, no twinking, no adventuring outside the "group," etc., and you REALLY have a traditional D&D thang goin' on.

Oh, and a bit of patience. I think that is probably the biggest necessity. Patience to NOT get to lvl 30.

BGTSCC is a fantastically made Server for levels 1–10. That alone could be a lifetime for a Toon, and a great experience for a Player. This year I made a toon that is still only lvl 4, and I have no interest in rushing it. Great stuff.

Good luck!

[NeOmega]

I have said it before, I will try it again.

what brings unhappiness? Unhappiness comes when ideals to not match reality.

The reality is this is a server driven by mechanics, not RP. That is why people want their XP, that is why they want their loot. That is why they OOC by things by their rich character for their poor characters.

This is the reality of the server.

I have given suggestions on how to make the mechanics drive RP, but instead am constantly told "let the DM's drive RP". There are not enough DM's with enough energy to do so. So Rp stalls, and grinders flourish.

I myself just like danger. I often find myself in teh fugue 300 points shy of leveling. Why? I don't know, I just feel; like challenging myself more the closer I get to leveling.

Danger often is better when alone, and the experience overall is usually better alone, because many people are not that great at the game, or they are 4 levels higher and just run around and slaughter everything, or they are mr mcgrabby pants, rushing every skeleton and lock they can pick, as if it's a contest.

I find only 1/3 adventure RP sessions are enjoyable. That is enough, for now, but I wish it were more.

[kkrazlite]

The mechanics and the character class building will always be a portion of the server. Some find it a means to show off their character via what their abilities are and how fast they can take down a monsters and solve problems. Rather then making a character to fit a perhaps non-exciting role.

I.E: A black smith, A traveling merchant, A collector, A Shepard, A Nomad

But the only problem with filling these roles is that they are unrewarding "Mechanically" in this server. There is no crafting system, there is no reward for traveling or discovering new area's aside from the achievement of finding them. In being a traveling merchant for example, that would consider you going from place to place buying and selling goods from one city to another and with the amount of gold you can acquire from selling goods being stagnated there is no reward for doing that either. The server just does not support these roles, and the only way they could be supported is with the help of a DM creating scenarios where these such roles are recommend or even sometimes needed.

[Evilar]

Well, if you have a long-time Player of BGTSCC joining in a new Campaign that starts at lvl 1 with a bunch of other, and mixed (old & new) Players, it is totally possible that the Players can offer the rewards, themselves

Interesting idea though I don't particularly like that because it seems like OOC play without a RP/IC reason.

The easiest way to begin is to simply state "no grinding." Boom. You now have a more traditional D&D adventure group to RP within.

When you said the "Boom" it brought me right back to when I first went into "The Topps" casino in Fallout:New Vegas and Swank says... "You looking for gamblin; BOOM we got rows of tables.." (Love that game

I completely agree with you and that's what I hope I can do with the new adventuring group I am a part of;
(No muling, No twinking, all first levels, fresh off the boat and as you said, patience.