Reducing the cap of spells to +4

[WhatsInTheBox]

Why should a caster have an easy access to better AC and AB than a non caster, who usually will just remain at +3 unless he or she does have a lot of gold or is just lucky looting?

As was pointed out by Ariella, Mage casters most often do not have access to armor, and thus, their AC really needs those +5/+6 bonuses, that last a long duration, that are not dispelable.

Divine casters are a bit more troubling in that they can armor up and buff, and become one-toon-wrecking balls. But buffing up sucks eggs, and if caught with your buffs down, a non-caster can wipe the floor with most any caster.

If the initiative here in this post was to balance out Casters in general to experienced on this Server, I would suggest looking at the implementation of Magic Dead Zones, or, better balancing the dispel from mobs (which maybe got reduced too much).

As far as I can see it, more and more +4 items are getting added to NPC merchants, so non-casters are getting attention.

But as a general rebuttal, casters are supposed to run out of buffs, and so the power vs duration should be the balance, alone. But with infinite Rests on BGTSCC, it kinda messes things up, imho. Maybe DM events take this into account better, but I can't say myself, as I no longer DM.

The problem with the line of thinking of.... if a caster is caught with no buffs up they are dead to non-casters is...They can just ethereal jaunt , fully buff and then wreck the non-casters face. without the bug of wands/scrolls being at character level to dispel , non-casters have no chance against any caster unless its a hipser doing an assassination that just insta gibs the caster before they can hit ethereal jaunt

[WhatsInTheBox]

Right after Hoihe's half-elf RCR, he became a rogue sneaker without any minmaxing, and indeed, somewhat gimped build. I could managed 300-400 damage a round without any scrolls or OP gear.

I often used to travel with paladins and dwarves who deal the likes of 50 damage a hit and have enough AB to land nearly all 6 attacks they get.

Those dwarves had to have been frenzied berserkers, and paladins are casters essentially. If they are doing that kind of damage its with epic divine might.

Uh... some of my fighters can deal 700-1000+ damage a round.

how in the nine hell can they do that?

He's counting multiple crits in one round which... against casters they can be crit immune via stone body/iron body/oaken resilience.


People keep on thinking about this in terms of PvE which you can't do... PvE is easily worked around via grouping etc. It's when PvP confrontations come up that you need to be concerned about the drastic power difference between non-casters and casters as I sorta pointed out in my previous post.


((apologies for double post))

[Endelyon]

I don't think you're going to see much support for a suggestion to actively nerf such a large percentage of characters over such a wide field of play even if it is only a difference of -1.

If anything it would be a more viable suggestion to increase the overall gear strength on the server to +5 instead of +4. It's a suggestion I've seen before and also participated in resulting discussions on QC, and at the end of the day it's always ended up a fairly divided issue, but my personal feeling is that allowing casters a slight edge over melees when it comes to item enhancement encourages partying up and creates RP.

I would be supportive of an initiative to add more epic (or at least epic-ish) items to vendors to make it easier for melee characters to get up to par on their gear without having to rely on horrendous RNG loot drops, and I believe that we're slowly but surely headed that direction with the addition of several of our more recent vendors.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

If the items are going to have that epic'ish property, they should be included with detrimental setback in other properties.

[matelener]

I'm a huge supporter of scaling up the power of magic items but it would equate to almost wiping the value of a veteran player's hoard (having quite a few epic items myself, I'd be perfectly fine with that). It could be a good moment to rewrite some gear rules such as not allowing Skills/Saves bonuses to stack from multiple sources.

Would introducing +5 AC/EB and +4 Attribute items negatively impact caster / non-caster relations? I think not. People seem to undervalue the advantage of a spare item slot. For example, if a wizard buffed a rogue with Cat's Grace, then the rogue could swap his +DEX item with a +2 hide/ms one, or get +2 to all saves, or put on a belt adding 20 more hit points etc. These are great bonuses.

And let's not forget the power hierarchy on the server. Right now, it's:

Casters (melee casters included) >> Non-casters

With small scaling up, it will become:

Casters > Non-casters.

It won't tip over unless you plan on adding +7 items with Death Magic immunity and permanent haste.

[V'rass]

Casters are supposed to have an advantage over non-casters... that's just the way it is. Non-casters are inferior to casters and as such deserve to be in their disadvantaged position. Darwinism... accept it lol.

[Nyeleni]

A weak argument: Darwinism. Casters are not supposed to be the powerhouse they are in nwn2.

Limit yourself to casting only the most needed spells in dire situations. Imagine that you can only replenish your spells if you rest. And that rest usually comes only once per day, and then you have to sleep or meditate for a certain amount of time. I'd say minimum 6-8 hours.

Do you really think that casters are that much more powerful than non-casters, still?

[metaquad4]

A weak argument: Darwinism. Casters are not supposed to be the powerhouse they are in nwn2.

Limit yourself to casting only the most needed spells in dire situations. Imagine that you can only replenish your spells if you rest. And that rest usually comes only once per day, and then you have to sleep or meditate for a certain amount of time. I'd say minimum 6-8 hours.

Do you really think that casters are that much more powerful than non-casters, still?

Incidentally, casters in D&D have always been powerful by midlevels. Early game, just like nwn2, they are meh in comparison to martial-types. Take CoDzilla for example, a term that D&D nigh invented. This isn't a thing in nwn2, that is a mistake that normally only people with little exposure to D&D make. This is a D&D thing.

Casters in nwn2 (and most other D&D games) have only a few shreds of power that they did in PnP, even.

That being said, I think scaling up the loot table wouldn't be a bad idea in order to let the martial characters in on some goodies. We already do have +4 stat items and +4 items with other attributes on them, but they are few and far between (and that statement is generous at best). Added to that fact, the economy in BG is absolute garbage (Gold is worthless between players [trade only plz]) making it very difficult for many players to get their hands on the epic stuff that lucky sods and the oldguard love to hoard.

The loot table should be laxed up a little so that people can actually find nice epic loot now and then, as opposed to requiring years of dedicated play (not everyone can no-life it) and lootruns/grinding sessions to boot (not everyone enjoys grinding). Either lax up the loot table, or let players loot way (way) more than 1/reset on a chest (the chests that the server allows you to access, that is).

Another thing that would be nice, would be to create a loot table specifically for all the monsters that are checked off as bosses. Remove all the BS items (spoons, ammo, etc) from this boss loot table, as well as all items +2 and below. Then, we can have some guaranteed reward for killing a boss. Maybe do this for a chest near the boss, instead of the boss' drop. Given the fact that people can now share chests, that would be more beneficial.

Infact (yay, more of this), removing mob loot entirely save quest/crafting items (which supposedly will make the server lag less) and adding in more chests to serve as loot/gold givers would also be good. So long as chests are loot-able infinite times per server. Anything less combined with that would make the quality of life for players worse.

[V'rass]

Casters still dominate in pnp and are if anything even stronger. Yes resting is restricted, it takes hours to prepare spells (unless a warlock or sorc), and eventually a caster will run out of spells (unless a warlock), these are all true. However consider this... Spells in pnp are usually far stronger then what we have in nwn2.

In pnp a single flame arrow would kill say a goblin as the hp vs spell power in pnp is the reverse of nwn2. In pnp a goblin would have maybe 20 hp at best while a flame arrow at a decent lv would do at least double that. On this server goblins are 10 times stronger then they are in pnp and thus a single flame arrow would not be enough to do the trick. Just as damage exceeds the amount of most healing spells in nwn2 in pnp damage usually exceeds the amount of hp a given mob has.

Add in this fact combined with the fact that casters can affect entire groups and yeah... casters are practically gods in pnp. The amount of power they have on this server is nothing compared to what it would be in pnp. They are already super nerfed and there is no need to make them even weaker then they already are.

[Blame The Rogue]

atm, casters and dds are the only ones really readily capable of reaching necessary epic area ac. casters with wards, and dds with items available to purchase in shops. wands/scrolls/potions can do it, but are dispelable. those listed above, and those that are lucky enough to find rare 4eb/ac gear and 3 stat gear, or those that have been here years and/or grind often. even using karond's services, grinding is necessary to find items of worthy trade value

i'm against lowering casters' wards. they are supposed to be a step higher than non-casters when warded. they are limited to spells per day, rest timer, and no rest areas, as it should be

i'm for making epic items more readily available to non-casters. and by epic i mean 4eb, 4ac, 3 stat, decent spell resist, and decent saves

Hidden: show

the new shop is a step in the right direction, but there is not a lot of weapon variety, and the armor in the shop should have been full plate imo

epic armors, weapons, belt of agility +3/3 dex, and mithral full plate, even if it's plain mith fp, should be available in an epic shop, even if it is at high cost

these epic stats should also be the amounts the coming crafting system maxes out at

survivability in epic areas should not be only for casters, dds, long time vets, and lucky die rollers

[Akroma666]

Agree with everything blame the rogue said^

[mrm3ntalist]

I think some issues are being repeated in many discussions.

The No1 issue non casters have, are access to epic equipment and variety of that equipment - while casters can get those bonuses from spells. This is a known issue and the QC Team/DM team/Devs have already decided to work on it. There is already another "more epic" store than before ready to go live.

Now capping the spells is something i disagree with for many reasons. Casters, excluding diviners ( clerics and Co ), need those bonuses to survive while most of those spells ( IMA/Shades/Energy Immunity/Shadow Shield ) are on the breach list which means everyone can dispel those using lesser Breach wands.

Another issue mentioned is the balance issue. This is a subject i discuss ( and gets discussed in general ) a lot. I will quote what someone wrote to me about balance which i agree fully )

- INTRODUCTION: THE LOGIC OF BALANCING: Feats, spells, skills and abilities of every kind, as well as classes and races, have in my view two balancing criteria: they MUST be balanced according to the gaming environment (and the BEST PLAY: player errors aren't a balance concern) and they MUST have some forms of counterplay (soft counters are better than hard ones, which just tend to make characters "one trick ponies").

Most arcane buffs have a counter, available to all. Lesser breach wands. In PvE many mobs cast breachs and Mords.

The divine buffs are more difficult. There are some buffs that have "bug-like" Behavior for example GWM and Magic Vestments not getting removed even if dispelled. And then there is the Rest timer and the Sanctuary-like-spells. Diviners ( and casters in General ) should be limited by the rest timer. Casting every ward after resting should not be a normal behavior. Even though the rest timer has no effect in PvE since casters can rest just before a dungeon, this can be in effect in DM events. If resting is looked after better by DMs, then gishes wont be the melee gods they are now and Casters wont spam spells and be conservative, while non casters do the dirty work for them.

I mentioned sanctuary not by chance. The current use of it is
- Cast Sanctuary
- Buff to God mode using every spell available
- Attack

To add to that, rulings were in place that those in sanctuary should not be able to be attacked using AoE spells or combat modes such as Whirling attack. This just allows every caster, to be 100% ready before any confrontation. Of course someone can argue that while the caster is in sanctuary and buffing the opponent can run away but i feel there should be more limitations. For example, the sanctuary should drop after lets say 3 non hostile spells are casted or the AoOs should not be considered exploit.

In conclusion, while there are small issues with some spells most are balanced ( meaning there are counters ). There are things that can be done to make things better such as epic shops, more updates regarding non casters and reworking on some mechanically limited melee classes, but nothing justifies such a radical proposal to cap all spells to +4

[LISA100595]

In conclusion, while there are small issues with some spells most are balanced ( meaning there are counters ). There are things that can be done to make things better such as epic shops, more updates regarding non casters and reworking on some mechanically limited melee classes, but nothing justifies such a radical proposal to cap all spells to +4

^Agreed.

I also do Not think they should capped.

[DM Ditto]

To add to that, rulings were in place that those in sanctuary should not be able to be attacked using AoE spells or combat modes such as Whirling attack. This just allows every caster, to be 100% ready before any confrontation. Of course someone can argue that while the caster is in sanctuary and buffing the opponent can run away but i feel there should be more limitations. For example, the sanctuary should drop after lets say 3 non hostile spells are casted or the AoOs should not be considered exploit.

As far as I am aware, this is incorrect - targets under the effect of Sanctuary can be attacked and/or hindered by AoE effects. Sanctuary only prevents direct attacks, but it does not prevent you being aware of the target nor does it prevent "accidents" via collateral damage. If, for example, you suddenly take offense to a patch of grass near the sanctuaried target and decide to carpet-bomb it with perfected alchemist's fires, the spell would be okay with that.

[Endelyon]

As far as I am aware, this is incorrect - targets under the effect of Sanctuary can be attacked and/or hindered by AoE effects. Sanctuary only prevents direct attacks, but it does not prevent you being aware of the target nor does it prevent "accidents" via collateral damage. If, for example, you suddenly take offense to a patch of grass near the sanctuaried target and decide to carpet-bomb it with perfected alchemist's fires, the spell would be okay with that.

This is correct. Given the way the spell functions I always imagined it as something like "if you go to directly strike your opponent, you suddenly lack the will to swing the weapon." Throwing an alchemist's fire at the ground or using a fireball in the air isn't a direct strike against your opponent.