Suggestion: Avernus

[Steve]

Of course we can put the seller on Nexus ( with items free of charge of cource ) right next to the 100% rcr bot, which is right next to the bot that gives free xp once per week, instead of doing the quests...

Well, that's all well and good...but the BETTER idea is to just give a Level 30 to first time loggers, and 5,000,000 gold coin. Much easier than all that jibbly jabbly "work" involved with too many NPCs.

[Calodan]

mrm3ntalist wrote:
Of course we can put the seller on Nexus ( with items free of charge of cource ) right next to the 100% rcr bot, which is right next to the bot that gives free xp once per week, instead of doing the quests...

Well, that's all well and good...but the BETTER idea is to just give a Level 30 to first time loggers, and 5,000,000 gold coin. Much easier than all that jibbly jabbly "work" involved with too many NPCs.

Can I just get someone to give all the PCs in my log in a level 30 boost? The gold I can handle myself.......

BTW you two are funny.....

[Snarfy]

See everyone seems to be talking about the new end game content and how its challenging and hard to get to. . . Yet from a personal stand point (( And ive seen people do this IG although i won't point you few out on the forums )) I noticed people would. . .

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Simply go ethereal or even sneak pass all the mobs and content!

Just to get to the shop.

Yep, this sounds pretty much exactly what my character would likely have to do. But not necessarily to get to the shop, but because that's how he'd survive the trek.

I have watched people do this and even me being one of those "Power Builds" find it kind of ridiculous that people have the option to skip pass all the content if they had one of two abilities. People are just going to the new area for the store this is of course no problem to me personally but "Skipping content" to reach that one objective you need to get to. . . Why not just find a group IC and ask for assistance instead of pulling these cheap tricks(?)

Because it's what some of our characters would do...? And, I suppose it's what some players would do to, since it's pretty easy for a lot of builds to...

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... ethereal jaunt the entire trip. Far easier for casters than sneaks at least.

But just because a character decides against going full-frontal against a swarm of demons in one of the Nine Hells doesn't necessarily mean the players are "skipping content". If you want to take your character out and tackle the area head-on, well... that's totally fine. You've obviously built your character to do so, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, I, much like you probably do, play a character who knows his limitations, and I in turn know full well the (drastic)limitations of my chosen build(or, at least I should by now, after playing it for 4 years). What may seem like cheap tricks to you are, in actuality, a means of survival to me, and my character. He's smart enough to know that: if he tries to take on multiple demons in the First layer of the Abyss, he's going to die horribly. I, as a player, also know that, mechanically speaking...

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... opting to fight these insanely tough demon mobs (with my 185hp, 31 AC sneak) instead of tip-toe'ing past them(... which is, you know, what rogues do) whenever possible would be not only OOC as heck, but immensely and stupidly suicidal! ...

... and this is regardless if I'm in a party or not. We could also easily argue about the time it might take each of us to traverse this new area using our preferred methods of play/playing our characters style, but the point would likely be moot, since my character and I tend to enjoy exploring every little nook and cranny of every area on the server/Sword Coast.

What this all really boils down to is that the only difference between your character and mines approach is that... there is no difference. Your character has the same sense of self-preservation as mine(I'm assuming), and you and I, as players, know how to utilize our characters to the best of their abilities.

However players want to explore the new area and find the shop is completely up to them. If they want to do it IC'ly, they will(although there are currently limitations on what character archetypes can legitimately do so). If they want to do it OOC'ly, well, they're going to do that too. And that, to me at least, is what's really cheap... and not for me, but for them, as it deprives them of what otherwise might be a very enjoyable RP moment/adventure.

[Boddynock]

I was actually going to bring up the stealth/ethereal thing at some point. As long as the shop is accessible via Avernus, then it can be assumed it was meant to be hard to get to...the mobs here (perhaps not all, but at least some) need to have insane detection skills. The place is meant to be dangerous, regardless of the tactics used.

The etherealness issue is a bit tougher to deal with, since even if you can be detected you can't usually be hit with anything...perhaps a special scripted breach trap that only strips etherealness/sanctuary effects should be utilized?

If the content is meant to be a hurdle that must be fought through, then make sure it is. As to the shopkeep being in the plane of air, or otherwise moved... It is accessible through a freestanding door with nothing on any side or behind it, so it is already a magical portal, who's to say it actually is IN Avernus, as opposed to just having a portal to it there? It certainly doesn't look like hell inside the shop. So really all that needs to happen is the shopkeep himself be changed to a more neutral entity, and then we have a shop that may exist in some pocket dimension accessible via a portal in Avernus run by I don't know, Azers, or something.

[Snarfy]

I was actually going to bring up the stealth/ethereal thing at some point. As long as the shop is accessible via Avernus, then it can be assumed it was meant to be hard to get to...the mobs here (perhaps not all, but at least some) need to have insane detection skills. The place is meant to be dangerous, regardless of the tactics used.

How did I know this would come up.... jeezus.

If it's going to be like that, and in the spirit of fairness, then... in addition to some of the mobs here getting insane detection values, and depending on what percentage "some" is, I offer an additional suggestion of adding a 25-50% arcane spell failure penalty, as well as a blanket -10 to -20 AB penalty on all characters traveling in Avernus, regardless of class.

Dangerous enough for you?

( ... cue the outrage)

[Boddynock]

I was actually going to bring up the stealth/ethereal thing at some point. As long as the shop is accessible via Avernus, then it can be assumed it was meant to be hard to get to...the mobs here (perhaps not all, but at least some) need to have insane detection skills. The place is meant to be dangerous, regardless of the tactics used.

How did I know this would come up.... jeezus.

If it's going to be like that, and in the spirit of fairness, then... in addition to some of the mobs here getting insane detection values, and depending on what percentage "some" is, I offer an additional suggestion of adding a 25-50% arcane spell failure penalty, as well as a blanket -10 to -20 AB penalty on all characters traveling in Avernus, regardless of class.

Dangerous enough for you?

( ... cue the outrage)

I am going to assume you are joking, having a high AB or the ability to cast doesn't allow you to just...skip things. You still have to fight the mobs (that already have very high AC and damage output). So, when you suggest this, I can only assume it is a joke. It's apples and oranges. I suggested no one be allowed to bypass the challenge entirely, and you counter with "Well if sneaks have to fight and we can't use ethereal, let's make everything harder for everyone!" That argument is entirely transparent in where it comes from.

You call to fairness yet the details of what you propose are the opposite of that.

[Snarfy]

I am going to assume you are joking, having a high AB or the ability to cast doesn't allow you to just...skip things. You still have to fight the mobs (that already have very high AC and damage output). So, when you suggest this, I can only assume it is a joke. It's apples and oranges. I suggested no one be allowed to bypass the challenge entirely, and you counter with "Well if sneaks have to fight and we can't use ethereal, let's make everything harder for everyone!" That argument is entirely transparent in where it comes from.

Nope. It wasn't a joke at all. Your suggestion is nothing more than a blanket penalty against characters that have invested in stealth, which, naturally, puts them at an extreme mechanical disadvantage, and then it forces them to live up to your expectation that everyone entering the zone needs to "fight the mobs". Sorry, but if I need to entertain the notion of suffering the effects your ludicrous expectation(a blanket penalty against sneaks), then you're going to have to entertain suffering my equally ludicrous expectation of a blanket penalty being imposed on everyone else.

Enjoy!

[chad878262]

I was actually going to bring up the stealth/ethereal thing at some point. As long as the shop is accessible via Avernus, then it can be assumed it was meant to be hard to get to...the mobs here (perhaps not all, but at least some) need to have insane detection skills. The place is meant to be dangerous, regardless of the tactics used.

How did I know this would come up.... jeezus.

If it's going to be like that, and in the spirit of fairness, then... in addition to some of the mobs here getting insane detection values, and depending on what percentage "some" is, I offer an additional suggestion of adding a 25-50% arcane spell failure penalty, as well as a blanket -10 to -20 AB penalty on all characters traveling in Avernus, regardless of class.

Dangerous enough for you?

( ... cue the outrage)

I am going to assume you are joking, having a high AB or the ability to cast doesn't allow you to just...skip things. You still have to fight the mobs (that already have very high AC and damage output). So, when you suggest this, I can only assume it is a joke. It's apples and oranges. I suggested no one be allowed to bypass the challenge entirely, and you counter with "Well if sneaks have to fight and we can't use ethereal, let's make everything harder for everyone!" That argument is entirely transparent in where it comes from.

You call to fairness yet the details of what you propose are the opposite of that.

Well, I think you need to define fair a little... See, What Snarfy is demonstrating is that if a character is built to sneak and that is all they do, yet you take it away then they don't have a 'back-up' available. You indicate everyone should have to fight, yet a FS/Gish/Bard is built to be able to do so...there is nothing holding them back. If someone has a character who can sneak, yet is built to be able to cast spells or fight then they are going to get spotted anyway, but if a character is built to sneak, they are generally pretty weak in every other area, so taking away there 'one thing' really is not fair at all. If they are spotted they die, plain and simple. Beefing up the spot scores just for the sake of doing so is actually pretty unfair, since there is nothing that artificially makes it harder on casters or melee heavy builds. Sneaks can't have wards up or any mob that is given true seeing spots them and they're dead, so they can't buff stealth, AB or AC with spells from wands/items/potions. They can only utilize items they equip, and stealth items have always generally had reduced AC benefits... (greater/epic stealth amulet has +2 Nat AC, boots with stealth have max +2 Dodge AC, helm/hood with stealth bonus has +2 deflection AC) so if you chose to build a character and focus all your feats, equipment and tactics to be the very highest stealth, shouldn't you get the benefit of stealth actually working in pve? Just like builds that focus on melee, DC or blaster casting or buffing can use their strengths to great effect...

[Charraj]

Having the Avernus area for Epics to RP/Adventure in, is great. Having the Epic Shop IG is great. Do the 2 actually need to be tied to each other? Can there not be a more Neutral setup for the Epic Shop? And one that doesn't require mechanical prowess in order to achieve these Items?

That is what I was trying to say. Thanks for putting it better.

Of course we can always put the seller on Nexus ( with items free of charge of cource ) right next to the 100% rcr bot, which is right next to the bot that gives free xp once per week, instead of doing the quests...

I know that player requests and concerns can get exhausting. But this is a valid concern that deserves to be heard. Players are not asking for freebies or easy items here. We're just talking about availability.

When the first epic vendor was put in (Arnbjorn in the Palace District, I believe) one of the stated justifications for putting him in was to make "top-tier" items available to everyone. That was something that I could get behind, and even though Arnbjorn was initially shocking to me, I now support the idea of epic vendors to make things more equally available. But to now put the best of these vendors behind the most difficult area on the server contradicts and defeats that purpose. This vendor is not available to everyone.

By all means, keep Avernus as monstrously difficult as it is now. It is the first layer of the Hells, and it deserves to be nigh-impossible. But please keep that separate from the OOC goal of making quality items widely available to everyone.

Epic vendors should not be used to incentivize people to beat new combat areas. Epic vendors are OOCly intended to level the playing field for everyone.

[Blame The Rogue]

having played a few stealthy archers here, i'm going to have to agree

sneaking is the only true survival mechanic for these kinds of characters

as such, i would not want the mobs to be given super spot

imagine being a cleric and trying to keep the sneaky archer, that cant be sneaky, healed. bad all around for everyone involved

[Moridin]

Just saying about casting ethereal on yourself - there are spawns in there that ignore it and break it.

[mrm3ntalist]

By all means, keep Avernus as monstrously difficult as it is now. It is the first layer of the Hells, and it deserves to be nigh-impossible.

Read above. Its not as difficult as people ( most of who havent been there ) make it sound like. It can be very easy to avoid most - if not all - mobs and get to the store.

But please keep that separate from the OOC goal of making quality items widely available to everyone.

They are separate. Avernus is supposed to be difficult to kill mobs there, especially solo. It was decided to put the epic store there. There are many epic ( end game ) items there. What is wrong with a little challenge to acquire them?

You have to go through a cr16-23(?) area, then either fight the mobs to get there or avoid them.

It feels to me that we are all playing this game with a SIMS mentality, which is not bad unless it is the only thing you do. Then whenever a small challenge is ahead of a goal, we panic and ask for things to get easier...

[Steve]

It feels to me that we are all playing this game with a SIMS mentality, which is not bad unless it is the only thing you do. Then whenever a small challenge is ahead of a goal, we panic and ask for things to get easier...

M3nt, I seriously think you misunderstand here. I, personally, am not asking for the Epic Shop to be EASIER to get to/visit.

What I am suggesting is to place it in a more Neutral context, so that RP has a better overall chance of leading to the visit/overcoming the challenge.

None but a sarcastic remark out of AC81 said we want the Epic Shop placed on Main Street Baldur's Gate.

Instead, do you disagree that a more Neutral Planar location, and/or a location that equally requires RP/Skills as it does mechanical power, to reach?

[Snarfy]

Instead, do you disagree that a more Neutral Planar location, and/or a location that equally requires RP/Skills as it does mechanical power, to reach?

... I agree

Oh, wait, you weren't asking me...

[Sierante]

Just visited the place. Started out with just two epic PCs, and as soon as the hellish creatures were encountered, it was a dead end, pretty much. They see through invisibility without second thought, so the only real way to avoid much of anything is through sanctuary, which isn't easy to get as a non-caster. The only reason we survived is because we were incredibly lucky to have another group of five or so PCs stumble upon us, and spells saved the day!

The areas are amazing though, so there's no complaint there, but I thought that the point with the new shop was to "close the gap" between melees and casters? Then the melees have to actually be able to get there! I suppose it might have been doable with a large group of them, though. Not saying that's impossible at all. Just that perhaps it's a little too hard for those poor melees who don't have hiding abilities, and no epic gear? Surely there must be room for compromise. :)

Otherwise cool experience though (despite crashes left and right)!

Edit: Examples of making it hard without the slashy-slashy part could be more puzzles, or a maze, or riddles, or whatever. Something that even weaker characters could do, but still find difficult.