Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

chad878262 wrote:

Flasmix wrote:but detectors have it way easier.

Agreed!

Was merely saying that no matter how you slice it spot/listen can always be high enough to detect and we have done tests where over certain thresholds stealth bugs out. I am not a coder/programmer/hacker to know the 127 / - 127 Akroma mentions, but Snarfy has posted before how a low level PC spotted his max level/maxed out gear sneak. In addition, without flagging hostile the stealth PC doesn't get a d20 roll while the spotter in active search mode does. I was merely stating in regards to the post about the 107 hide roll that going to high can cause unforeseen issues, I honestly have no idea what the 'hard limit' is, but I have been told it's somewhere in the low-mid 80's... that might very well be incorrect, but high 70's - low 80's is usually good enough in pve and I have never been able to get higher without buffing, which I generally don't do to avoid certain mobs from seeing through my stealth.

AlwaysSummer Day wrote:The problem is with hide/ms is it functions on a all in or nothing setup. If your opponent cannot see you you win. If they can see you you might as well not have it. This is a terrible mechanic as it forces spot/listen into the same issue. If you are a level 30 sober fighter who dumps all points into spot gg, you will never see a hipster. Roll a druid and gg you see them all.

Adjusting numbers only moves the façade of balance left or right.

mrm3ntalist wrote:

Maecius wrote:And has someone crunched the numbers with this to assure that a fully dedicated spotter still has the ability to detect a fully dedicated stealther if conditions are right? Stealth is a very powerful class ability, particularly for roleplay, so it's important not to allow it to be an ability that can be used with impunity/without fear of reprisal at level 30.

There are many ways to detect a sneaker. To put it simply we made it too easy and that is why players go after grandfathered sneak items like crazy.

The first of course is active detection. Spot vs Hide, Listen vs MS. The mechanics work in favor of the detector so are the spells. The basics are like this: a character with just 33Listen ( no items ) has a chance to detect a sneak with 52MS just from the opposing 1d20 rolls ( just has toremember to activate the detection mode ). Especially when in RP scenario where the sneak has to be hidden for a long time, just one low roll and the sneak is detected.

The more detect items/spells you add after that, the more you can detect. What makes it more easier are spells such as amplify and C&C which give a massive bonus. The problem with those massive bonuses is not just that there isnt anything similar on the sneaks but it makes it possible to reach the +50 skill bonus cap. When that cap is reached the detector will always have a chance to detect the sneak again because of 1d20. If it is a build with high wisdom such as a monk, druid, cleric etc, then it becomes much easier.

Even a character with absolutly no items and just a maxed listen can detect every sneak just with umd. Just add up the numbers of C&C, Amplify, Heroism/Gr.Heroism, Owls wisdom/Owls insight and the numbers can get very high.

The second is passive detection. Just in case one does not want to invest in detection skills, spells can be used to detect sneaks. At first there were just AoE spells. Gareut made good used of that by casting Spike groth wchich lasts 1hour/level. For those umd characters there are CL20 and 30 versions of that scroll to be found.

Then, because it was not possible to cast those damaging spells in every area, such as outside the FAI we implemented the Alarm spell. Done. Hide/MS suddenly has not use. And because there is a ding heard by the alarm spell that notifies both the detector and the sneak, we implemented the silent alarm... so that only the detector is notified.

The final type of detection is the metagaming one. Listening to the footstep noise or the sound effects spells do after transitions makes everyone aware of nearby sneaks. Even those that dont want to metagame the sneak, is hard, because they know someone is there. Once someone listens to those sound effects, usually castings of C&C and amplify are followed...

To sum things up, the changes wont result in undetectable sneaks. It might require for some characters to actually have some detection gear on but nothing compared to hte gear a sneak has to have. Other than that, alarm and AoE spells cover the rest who dont want to bother with detection.

mrm3ntalist wrote: Even the fighter who dumps all points into spot it can detect any sneak if thats what he wants. Of course, in order to detect a sneak who invests heavily in hiding ( which results in low AC/Saves/HP ) the same way the fighter needs to invest more in detection and sacrifice something in other areas. If you expect to have the fighter getting full bonuses on HP/Saves/AC/AB/Damage AND being able to detect every sneak, that is not going to happen. Sacrifices need to be made on both sides.

AlwaysSummer Day wrote:33 + maybe +2 from attributes = 0% chance to spot. Presuming a fighting will dump four feats and gear out explicitly to spot sneaks and spam consumables is nonsensical.

Thids wrote:I wanted to link a post where I'm saying "if we introduce these +3 items now, where will it stop?", but that thread has unfortunately disappeared. I'm going to post the video anyway.



Went from "let's introduce +3 hide/ms items into the loot table" to introducing +4AC +4hide/ms items (even though the idea of increasing AC instead of hide and MS has been furiously rejected by the sneak lobby ) and nerfing the crap out of amplify and C&C.

Yet another notch on my internet argument victory board.

Flasmix wrote:Nobody is nerfing stealth, it's a nerf to the detectors. What are you talking about?

mrm3ntalist wrote:

AlwaysSummer Day wrote:33 + maybe +2 from attributes = 0% chance to spot. Presuming a fighting will dump four feats and gear out explicitly to spot sneaks and spam consumables is nonsensical.

It has a chance to spot a character with up to 54hide. The 0 chance is for anything above that. But then that fighter can use potions/scrolls/wands and one or two items, then he can detect the majority of sneaks.

AlwaysSummer Day wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:

AlwaysSummer Day wrote:33 + maybe +2 from attributes = 0% chance to spot. Presuming a fighting will dump four feats and gear out explicitly to spot sneaks and spam consumables is nonsensical.

It has a chance to spot a character with up to 54hide. The 0 chance is for anything above that. But then that fighter can use potions/scrolls/wands and one or two items, then he can detect the majority of sneaks.

54 hide so. . . A low level sneak? Read the original post. This is an all or nothing ability. Either you win or lose based on if it works or not. That is the issue. Not some abstract argument over what has to invest how much to remain viable.