Dispel vs Caster Level

[Calodan]

If CL is concern, I'd suggest to implement wands with custom CL. It'll be one heck of a money sink (cl 30 level 9 spell wand == 202500 gp), and will make better wizard crafters possible.

If they had one a Bigby wand in the hands of a FB/WM/F might be pretty dangerous...........

[Displacer]

I built Gish near exclusively prior to fix.

Personal motto, if it ain't broke, don't break it!

New fix, made character changes, reworked for power/higher CL more spell power.

Characters I really loved, I kept the same (luckily the one I did is a HiPser so made decision easy).

Talk of new NEW fix, PLEASE STOP, ENOUGH is ENOUGH.

Live and let live

[chad878262]

If CL is concern, I'd suggest to implement wands with custom CL. It'll be one heck of a money sink (cl 30 level 9 spell wand == 202500 gp), and will make better wizard crafters possible.

If they had one a Bigby wand in the hands of a FB/WM/F might be pretty dangerous...........

Pretty sure Wands are still capped at level 4 spells so I don't foresee that being an issue. 750 * CL30 * SL4 = 90,000 so still a big time gold sink! an IMA CL30 wand would cost 67,500 gold, but that FB/WM/F would only use 1 charge per reset unless hit with breach/mords... 1,350 gold per play session is not all that much (67,500 / 50 charges).

Again, IMO such a Wand should require 30 or higher UMD to use if it is possible to change the requirement for wands (I believe currently all wands require UMD 11). Of course most F/WM/FB also include R3 so maxing UMD shouldn't be too much of an inconvenience... However, it might make FvS builds think hard about if they want EDM or Tumble, Evasion, Expose Weakness and UMD... It also must be considered that this reverts us back to UMD users being really powerful. I would humbly recommend Wands/Potions/on use items be capped at CL25 or so. This basically means they can still be dispelled if they are traveling along in such an area, but generally won't be dispelled by lower end mobs while traveling from BG to Beregost/Nashkel. High level casters should be the most powerful at casting and shouldn't be replicated by 75% of the server at the cost of maxing one skill. UMD has been severely weakened by the dispel fix and I do think it should get a bump. However, I do not think it should make everyone in to a full on CL30 gish.

[Calodan]

Pretty sure Wands are still capped at level 4 spells so I don't foresee that being an issue. 750 * CL30 * SL4 = 90,000 so still a big time gold sink! an IMA CL30 wand would cost 67,500 gold, but that FB/WM/F would only use 1 charge per reset unless hit with breach/mords... 1,350 gold per play session is not all that much (67,500 / 50 charges).

Again, IMO such a Wand should require 30 or higher UMD to use if it is possible to change the requirement for wands (I believe currently all wands require UMD 11). Of course most F/WM/FB also include R3 so maxing UMD shouldn't be too much of an inconvenience... However, it might make FvS builds think hard about if they want EDM or Tumble, Evasion, Expose Weakness and UMD... It also must be considered that this reverts us back to UMD users being really powerful. I would humbly recommend Wands/Potions/on use items be capped at CL25 or so. This basically means they can still be dispelled if they are traveling along in such an area, but generally won't be dispelled by lower end mobs while traveling from BG to Beregost/Nashkel. High level casters should be the most powerful at casting and shouldn't be replicated by 75% of the server at the cost of maxing one skill. UMD has been severely weakened by the dispel fix and I do think it should get a bump. However, I do not think it should make everyone in to a full on CL30 gish.

Yeah but what about scrolls? I mean if we already have potions as MADDY THUNDERKEG has implied.....then scrolls and wands should follow. (GET YOUR CL 30 POTIONS FROM MADDY THUNDERKEG AND BE HAPPY WITH YOUR WARM FUZZY BUFFING BLANKET!!!!)

On a side note maybe potions should be capped at 25 CL as well? Or drop to 20 CL and open up wands and scrolls. Scrolls I believe are already able to go to 15 CL now with the new scroll system so should be a easy line change right? Then modify wands unless wands are already CL customizable to 15 CL now? So we could just bump up the wand and scroll system to 20 and bring the potion system to 20 as well for continuity and then work from there?

It should be considered that dropping the dispel caps should happen as well. If in PnP as the argument for this is stated as opposed to the game engine for video gaming is to be used then dispel caps are lower and should be used with the idea of dispel working now as it is intended for PnP. So put caps where they are supposed to be and give us 20 CL wand, potion and scroll crafting. Roll this out with the item crafting system. READY? BREAK! *breaks huddle and heads to the line of scrimmage.......*

On the thought of FvS that is exactly the choice I had when UMD and dispel was not as well......harsh? I was either going to be a Pally/FvS or I was going to go with the FvS/WM/R build. I felt that the use of Tumble, UMD and the open skills was far more beneficial in the long run than EDM. I built Kory around the idea to be able to "SOMEWHAT" tank and survive in DM Wagner's events. IT worked great until the dispel fix. I could use scrolls in combination with ICE to tank it out Dwarven Defender style. I was nigh godly invincible as far as standing and taking punishment. Yeah sure I was not going to kill much in the way of uber monsters in DM events all the time but I was not going to overly destroy the balance since I was just going to survive most of the time. Other FvS could wipe out entire DM spawns without batting an eyelash. Kory was not one of those. He has to be smart and think about it. He has to RP a better way other than just smash and dash. I changed his build to fit the dispel but the more I think about the more I miss what I had him as originally in a FvS/R/WM it was just a fun build. Yeah it was a level 23 PC when facing undead since WM is useless against those but that was his weakness...... Oh wait no it wasn't I just needed to cast mass heal and epic mass heal and undead vanish......but it took me awhile to figure this out....not sure why I was so traded on this. The more I talk about my old build the more I want it back but I at least want to be able to use some scrolls efficiently again. Right now I do not use them much.

[Valefort]

We have master alchemist able to craft high CL potions now though ! If prices are really too prohibitive maybe that can be tweaked but otherwise it's a nice RP alley for Alchemists.

.. maybe we can imagine a new PRC like "master scribe" able to scribe some high CL scrolls, or normal CL scrolls at a discount ?

[Calodan]

.. maybe we can imagine a new PRC like "master scribe" able to scribe some high CL scrolls, or normal CL scrolls at a discount ?

Yeah that is great but which is easier? Making new PRCs from scratch or just modifying a few lines of script in a current system?

[NegInfinity]

Pretty sure Wands are still capped at level 4 spells

Actually this is true. 4th level spell max.

Another thing is that pnp wand takes one day per 1000gp of its price to craft it.

IMO such a Wand should require 30 or higher UMD to use

I don't see any logic behind this idea.

In PnP any wand had flat DC20 requirement (vs neverwinter's DC10). If you are gonna invent random requirements out of the blue, the only ones who will benefit from CL30 wands will be ... MAGES. Because they can fire a wand without making an UMD check and can do the same thing with scrolls, and they can craft all of those.

[Calodan]

and they can craft all of those.

Not true now. Only Warlocks can deceive items now. So Arcane can only make arcane wands, potions and scrolls. Divine to divine and so on and so forth. I would also think the other exception is Master ALchemist who can make any potion from wands, scrolls as well as the warlock.

[NegInfinity]

Yeah but what about scrolls? I mean if we already have potions as MADDY THUNDERKEG has implied.....then scrolls and wands should follow. (GET YOUR CL 30 POTIONS FROM MADDY THUNDERKEG AND BE HAPPY WITH YOUR WARM FUZZY BUFFING BLANKET!!!!)

A scrolls should not have a configurable caster level and this shouldn't be changed. IMO.

Also, you can already buy scrolls and use them as a very expensive magical ammunition. Even divine ones.

[NegInfinity]

Not true now.

That's not what I meant.
What I meant is that a very wealthy wizard with 0 umd skill could invest a mere 4.5 million gold pieces, make 50 cl 30 wands for himself/herself and use them ALL in battle. Without ever making an umd dc check. Of course it'll be arnane wands for arcane user and such.

Either way, I have impression that the thread takes turn towards "let's argue to death and do nothing".

Which is a pity.

[Calodan]

That's not what I meant.
What I meant is that a very wealthy wizard with 0 umd skill could invest a mere 4.5 million gold pieces, make 50 cl 30 wands for himself/herself and use them ALL in battle. Without ever making an umd dc check. Of course it'll be arnane wands for arcane user and such.

Good point. How does that affect or is it effect? The current server standard of magic users already being the uber power? At least with a new scroll system you can give some of that power to those who invest the skills into it. If they already had that power I see no reason the change being discussed would even change that at all. In fact a Wizard is supposed to be carrying wands, scrolls and potions as their way of using magic. At least that what I got from them being more studious and would research what they needed before heading out. It always meant to me they carried items to use the magic they had and saved their memorized spells for those moments when truly needed. I guess what I am saying I think the mage making a bunch of wands to use in battle was the intention of the game?

[Valefort]

.. maybe we can imagine a new PRC like "master scribe" able to scribe some high CL scrolls, or normal CL scrolls at a discount ?

Yeah that is great but which is easier? Making new PRCs from scratch or just modifying a few lines of script in a current system?

At the moment wizards can already modify the CL of the scrolls they scribe, except they're capped. I don't think it's a good idea to see CL 30 scrolls everywhere, at all (imagine a WM/FB with scrolls lvl 38 of mordenkainen disjunction and other shenaningans ...), this purely for PvP reasons because even though I think PvP in nwn2 is plain bad it could be much worse.

Hence keep the scribing system as it is now and add something where you are able to fine tweak things.

[chad878262]

well, it would also benefit Rogue builds since they tend to max UMD so would always pass the DC30 check. It is not an arbitrary requirement so much as something to benefit the classes that are supposed to benefit from them vs. classes that want to dip rogue/warlock/bard without able learner to get the minimum UMD for wand use.

Honestly just going with your PnP amount of 20 at least nulifies builds that don't have any classes with UMD as a class skill (and don't have 18+ CHA) which would accomplish the goal, benefiting classes with UMD without benefiting cross-classes. My comment was more based on trying to continue for the allowance of wands and such as they exist today, but not allow for CL 25, 30 (whatever) wands for a minimal investment in the skill. Scrolls scale DC based on spell level so it makes sense to me that scaling could theoretically apply to wands, but maybe not.

[Calodan]

At the moment wizards can already modify the CL of the scrolls they scribe, except they're capped. I don't think it's a good idea to see CL 30 scrolls everywhere, at all (imagine a WM/FB with scrolls lvl 38 of mordenkainen disjunction and other shenaningans ...), this purely for PvP reasons because even though I think PvP in nwn2 is plain bad it could be much worse.

Hence keep the scribing system as it is now and add something where you are able to fine tweak things

Yes up to level 15 I believe. I am not saying we should allow CL30. I fully understand the apprehension on that. I am saying 15 is a little low and that we should bump up to 20. 20 is the level most want anyway. That is the level of +5 EB Greater Magic Weapon and a few other spells that would be nice to have like Spiders skin maxes out around there too I think. Magic Vestment. Shield of Faith. Those would be nice for those UMDers here and there and CL20 should still be dispelled by full casters and boss type monsters under the current dispel system with the caps high. Not sure if the caps were put at PnP level if that would work still though.....not that savvy...

[NegInfinity]

I guess what I am saying I think the mage making a bunch of wands to use in battle was the intention of the game?

Hard to say.

As far as I can tell, D&D intended wands to be a caster's (treasured?) posession, or emergency device of sorts. Keep in mind, that pnp wands take xp to craft (in addition to cold) and making them takes time. So if we take CL30 level 4 wand, it'take 90000 gold pieces, 3600 xp and 90 days for a (PnP) wizard to make it.

Also, pnp has similar situation with mundane crafted items. It takes weeks to make a mundane fullplate armor (and for a mundane mithral armor it can take two years easily)