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[arakes99]

If we wanted to change this we likely should have done so with 100% RcR in place. A lot of builds currently make use of evasion and this while wearing heavier armor types and don't have anywhere near 22 Dex.

Honestly the only "Fix" I think this feat needs is the removal of the auto-hit.

If we can't fix that it's better to leave it alone and not inflict unresolvable issues on current characters. My two cents!

Would it be possible to make this attack do no damage so it can be used as a DOT, and to lower AC, but not to bypass and do damage that it really, really shouldn't? Not sure if that's possible or not.

[AC81]

Increasing Dex to that level would make it impossible to get for MAD builds, namely Monks, who also really need it and should be able to use it.
Change the cool-down timer from 6 sec to 18 sec if anything. However, I'd vote to not change it.

[Theodore01]

as for the mechanical aspect, i feel EW, as well as evasion, are sound choices ic and ooc, and are a huge boon to all non-casters. and i think the server and the mobs are balanced with that in mind

That's exactly the point.

[Eclypticon]

If we change the cool down, it may be a good idea to rebalance some of the mobs for the non caster classes.

[Blackman D]

why would that matter? there are a lot of builds that dont use EW

[chad878262]

Many builds that do already struggle against mobs and especially against bosses... heavy rogue builds for instance.

[vbaddict]

The issue is that the only way to 'fix' EW (due to it being a bug within the code that can't be fixed in the feat itself, as far as I understand it) is to create a custom feat and remove the old one. All custom feats break stealth, making EW useless to the character types that actually are supposed to be using it.

Without understanding what types of changes require a custom feat, I see there is a good chance this will amount to an interesting theoretical exercise.

Auto Hit
Thanks BMD, never understood this bug until your explanation. I'd always see *Expose Weakness Failed* and wonder, "what is this auto hit thing everyone talks about!?!" Had I examined my combat log closely, I would have seen damage recorded for those misses. Most would agree to remove this, but looks like this is a change that would require a custom feat.

Stacking AC Debuff
Disclaimer: my main has no levels in a high BAB progression class which greatly shapes my views on EW. So the feat has spoiled me. If I have the patience to let a few stack up, I can hit my enemies. Perhaps a bit of a crutch for me, but if this is the intent behind the debuff, giving it an inverse relationship to BAB could be a good way to balance it. Perhaps something like:

-3 AC: BAB/Character Level < 23/30
-2 AC: BAB/Character Level < 25/30
-1 AC: BAB/Character Level < 28/30

Just tossed some numbers out there. They should be tweaked to make things a wash relative to BAB. Or put another way, a PC should not be more mechanically powerful if it were to reduce its BAB. Anyway, altering the debuff is probably something requiring a custom feat so as mentioned earlier, this is just an interesting theoretical exercise.

Damage Over Time
High dexterity builds would have a smaller strength modifier added to damage, so this looks nicely balanced as is.

Custom Feat Breaking Stealth
We are handcuffed in many ways because of stealth, but it looks like access to the feat can be specifically controlled. Customizing the prerequisites of Evasion or Epic Prowess could filter out the problem builds without breaking stealth. If the problem is high BAB crit builds dipping for EW, would requiring 10 levels of cleric, monk, ranger or SD improve things? Or a combination of these classes totaling 15 levels? 20 levels? Or something completely different related to BAB?

These details are better left to QC. The optimistic takeaway is this... If a change is needed, the problematic builds can be addressed without breaking the feat.

[Displacer]

Ok, for the love of God, let's just leave it alone.
This is getting way too complicated

[thids]

I don't see anything wrong with low ab builds being "harmed" by nerfing EW. If a builds viability depends on using a broken and bugged OP feat as a crutch, then that build wasn't viable to begin with. Low ab characters can't hit in melee? Really? Isn't that how, you know, the mechanics in this game are supposed to work? Bugs are there to be fixed, next time don't build around a bug. Also, "characters which are supposed to be using it" are characters with access to evasion, not "sneaks". The feat has absolutely no direct correlation to sneaking whatsoever. Seeing as a longterm solution will obviously never happen (it's been years now), we might as well finally find a simper solution.


The custom feat is required for fixing the autohit, changing the parameters of the feat does not require a custom feat. 18 or 30 second cooldown seems appropriate. Autohit every 3 or 5 rounds? I think everyone could live with that. Increase the ac debuff duration to x5 for 30 seconds option or x3 for 18 seconds option.

[Displacer]

I don't see anything wrong with low ab builds being "harmed" by nerfing EW. If a builds viability depends on using a broken and bugged OP feat as a crutch, then that build wasn't viable to begin with. Low ab characters can't hit in melee? Really? Isn't that how, you know, the mechanics in this game are supposed to work? Bugs are there to be fixed, next time don't build around a bug. Also, "characters which are supposed to be using it" are characters with access to evasion, not "sneaks". The feat has absolutely no direct correlation to sneaking whatsoever. Seeing as a longterm solution will obviously never happen (it's been years now), we might as well finally find a simper solution.


The custom feat is required for fixing the autohit, changing the parameters of the feat does not require a custom feat. 18 or 30 second cooldown seems appropriate. Autohit every 3 or 5 rounds? I think everyone could live with that. Increase the ac debuff duration to x5 for 30 seconds option or x3 for 18 seconds option.

Thids, the Feat when used by Dex builds, more specifically ones without sneak di (monks, dex rangers, not even sneaks per se...) works exactly as intended outside of the Auto Hit function. Even then, when used by these builds which have very little damage to speak of having minor strength benefits (my Ranger Gish has an average of 12 Dmg per hit) the auto hit is hardly game breaking .

Your argument that builds that can't get by without this Feat are too weak for this server seems a bit misdirected and condescending. Players should play the builds they find most interesting for RP and fun to play. Who are you to say they should scrap them and build more for power, a thought that seems counter productive and ironic to this argument.

The Feat was put into this game for balance purposes. Some people took it in order to build for power, some took it as it was intended but it seems increasingly incapable to decouple the two without breaking too many things and/or builds. The last attempt at creating a "Homebrew" EW Feat was a disaster and thankfully despite an inordinate amount of time being taking to create that Feat with a far more robust team, the wisdom to scrap that plan due to it's greater complications won out.

Can we say that with a less robust and stretched staff, that someone taking the time to again work on this issue would react the same if a feat is created that is less than optimal for one, or more of the unintended builds and/or issues......I have my doubts. I have seen Bigby's 9 and 5 broken with no talk of a fix being implemented because of the time constraints and work scope the Development and QC teams are under. Let's not break anything else that we might not get back, please.

[Kauaiian]

One of the arguments Ive read that advocated the dispel fix change was: "Don't want be dispelled? Be a full caster."

So I guess "want to hit something? Be a class with high BAB" Some classes just weren't meant to solo the server.

[Snarfy]

The last attempt at creating a "Homebrew" EW Feat was a disaster and thankfully despite an inordinate amount of time being taking to create that Feat with a far more robust team, the wisdom to scrap that plan due to it's greater complications won out.

Yeah, this. Considering how awesomely certain feats are working right now, my vote would be to stay the hell away from any more homebrew EW attempts. Period.

Cooldown adjustments? Meh, whatever, sure. Just no re-designs for the love of fff.....

[arakes99]

Maybe a 12 second cooldown? I say 18 is too long.

Massive reworks to this, again, without 100% RcR is a terrible idea. We should have kept free rebuilds if we intended to break builds. That's only fair and we had the chance and missed it.

A MINOR tweak I can see as acceptable, like a longer cooldown or removing the base damage from this hit to mitigate the Auto-Hit. But some massive effort to redo what is likely an impossible to redo feat that will break builds is an idea that has come and gone.

[Akroma666]

If the cool down gets upped, please up the DoT as well.. I don't want my bleeder to be unexpectedly nurfed as a conciquence to trying to balance a necessary melee feat.

Honestly I think the feat is fine as is because melees need any help they can get. Its when we see the FvS running around with expose that's a problem IMHO.

[Narsil]

No feat should be a "Must-Have" for any type of build. To have it so lends more weight to the sticky issues of imbalance and power creep that this server already is struggling with.

But, an extended cooldown/timer sounds like a reasonable compromise. I agree......messing with a replacement feat is just asking for more trouble. Simple is good !