Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Convolutedline wrote:ok so its a matter of disproportionate inequal/unequal exchanges ok I think about it more

Yes, think about it as you have to give up something good to get something good. Doesn't always have to be 1:1, but it should be close. Practical Metamagic is worth what you give up to get it, even the possible 3 epic feats for not staying pure, if your build is such that you want to empower/maximize/quicken a lot of spells (that's why sorcerer works so well with AS).

This is also why I have said Caster Level makes a very good thing to look at to balance the class. If you are going to be the equivalent of a Cleric able to cast level 7 spells with a CL of 17, why should you still be able to be a full CL Wizard? This is why I've said the primary class CL should max at ~26-28 while the secondary class maxes at level 5 spells w/ a CL ~14 or so. If you want to build a more 'even' MT, say 10/10/10 then maybe you end up at CL ~23 in the primary and CL ~20 in the secondary, casting level 9 spells and level 8 spells. If you recall when I said that maybe you give 9/10 progression for the primary casting class and 6/10 for the secondary, or only make it a 5 level PRC, this is why. It makes the player chose between reaching almost to max CL in one of the two classes (which is the route most players would take) while still catering to those like Tsidkenu by allowing for an ok CL in both arcane and divine. The idea is you either get to cast high level spells of both magics, but at lower CL or you retain almost max CL in one type while the other type is relatively low-mid levels in regards to spell levels.

^^ yes this versatility of options

sorry if confusing I edit my posts a lot as I am writing

Maybe consideration of restrictions of metamagic feats or the practiced spellcaster feats might be limited due to PrC

if it amounted to cutoff of cl 23 after recently playing - looking at all dungeons even Avernus that would be enough for viability.

I find the cl23 is relatively useful still an with the increased number of spells an ability to cast assay resistance for conflicts where spell resist is dire would be satisfactorily beneficial

This would also encourage use of epic spell per day feats.


3.x's real bottleneck on player power, and the MT takes both of those right in the face. The effectiveness of non-damage spells increases quadratically, rather than linearly, so being two spell tiers behind everyone else for fifteen levels is a real drag that you will feel if you have any other straight-class caster to compare it to.

On top of all that you've got to maintain two full casting stats, you lose access to class abilities, and many of the class abilities you have don't work or don't work well: have fun trying to buy your way back into that heavy armor you qualify for.

Convolutedline wrote:^^ yes this versatility of options

sorry if confusing I edit my posts a lot as I am writing

Maybe consideration of restrictions of metamagic feats or the practiced spellcaster feats might be limited due to PrC

if it amounted to cutoff of cl 23 after recently playing - looking at all dungeons even Avernus that would be enough for viability.

I find the cl23 is relatively useful still an with the increased number of spells an ability to cast assay resistance for conflicts where spell resist is dire would be satisfactorily beneficial

You haven't had to contend with dispels much yet have you?

CL 23 is a really big hit...Frankly anything below CL 28 is pretty dangerous as a single Greater dispel is most likely going to strip at least a couple wards... CL23 is likely to have 2/3 of it's wards stripped in one Greater dispel... Again, it's a big cost, but you are getting to cast 8/9th level spells from arcane and divine spell lists, so the cost should be pretty high..

no i go to yuan tis with my current build a lot [or did I'm still newly back but, i've been three times this week] an yes spell breach / dispel can effect me but, it rarely hits level six spells an up like extended shadow shield or extended greater heroism - thats at cl21 wizard with practice spell caster / prodigy. - it always hits my level two - three spells like blessed, blessed aim so as a MT I try not to be so buff heavy at first an sorta buff as I go since I always play with different people an such I don't know if they hang back or not, maybe it'd be better to buff them instead of me? That also sorta feels more scaffolding / fluid than say buffing like mad - I previously would do that but, ugh - I like that more because people are just like going, its not such a grind eck...

I don't cast mirror image for instance usually unless the target approaches me - its more reactive/predictive than preventative/predictive I also try to hang back more when I see a caster who will dispel to see if they try to dispel my improved mage armor or snakeskin off an ally [which they tend not to be able to dispel either for whatever reason] because if they don't they're either already about to die, busy casting a different spell or will at times target me immediately if I approach depending circumstance.

So yes the dispels hit an I actually mem an extra shades spell for premonition an the like - an for a while when I was weaker I memmed extra shadow shield - I didn't get extend til late too. [I dont know if prot vs spells helps vs dispel, looks like a nope] I think if I mt I would probably try to consider maximize as it would help with reserved feats but :S an random situations where high damage would be most useful


read this too x.x which fits my experience - though for yuan ti with a fairly effective damaging group its been ok - an my build's been instrumental for certain groups with no dedicated wizard or cleric for the boss fights equally as say a fighter / tank like...

so I think from looking at that would be best implementation though requiring more definition

If you're in a campaign where you don't get to rest very often*, it's probably a significantly bigger deal (because the action economy runs up against resource management if the aggregate number of actions between replenishmenta becomes large). I personally prefer those sorts of campaigns for various reasons, although it can be harder to play them from the average published adventure.

The usual Mystic Theurge used early entry tricks. Precocius Apprentice. Shenanigans with Heighten Spell + metamagic cost reducers, Versatile Spellcasting, Sanctum Spell, or other monkeying around with spell levels. Or stuff like Divine Magician, Anyspell, racial spellcasting, ways of getting both flavors of spells without 3 or 4 levels on each side.

Like, as a mystic theurge just adding ^^ [should stop editing]

its really unlikely that you'd see my character with the giant mirror image ball; generally as an MT I need to know how many more mirrors there are like; my build design generally will suffer once those mirrors are gone premonition doesn't last many rounds of sustained attack at about 30 - 31 ac [thats with tumble :S]

Also would be better because I would be able to buff allies more than myself

Now I sorta need to buff my dcs and my ab because I use a weapon but - that would be less likely it would be so much better and I'd rcr so I'd have a good reason to go to the new lower level dungeons like ANT BURRRROOOOW

So is this right?

Definitively
Restrictions CL cap = 23
No additional PrC class allowed

Undefined
maybe a minimum stat distribution? [is that ever a limitation?]
Must know 2nd level arcane an divine spells or third level spells [with an active PrC restriction in place this seems less sure to me]

Unknown
Method to achieve CL cap / leveling progression - its spells per day / cl but, how wll the progression look to achieve that? - what is process?


Next step
Most likely would be to define the mnimum spellcasting level for each spellcasting class to then determine progression of build - work retroactively if result is unsatisfactory.

CL 23 is a really big hit...Frankly anything below CL 28 is pretty dangerous as a single Greater dispel is most likely going to strip at least a couple wards... CL23 is likely to have 2/3 of it's wards stripped in one Greater dispel... Again, it's a big cost, but you are getting to cast 8/9th level spells from arcane and divine spell lists, so the cost should be pretty high..

Nothing is defined, we've never approved any iteration of MT... However, it seems a popular class to implement. It's problematic because every suggestion has either been to OP or too weak. It's a difficult class to balance.

Convolutedline wrote:no i go to yuan tis with my current build a lot [or did I'm still newly back but, i've been three times this week] an yes spell breach / dispel can effect me but, it rarely hits level six spells an up like extended shadow shield or extended greater heroism - thats at cl21 wizard with practice spell caster / prodigy. - it always hits my level two - three spells like blessed, blessed aim

Your perception is incorrect. If you check your logs, you'll see it's quite a different story:

- For Spell Breach, the Caster Level or Spell Level have zero relevance. Spell Breaches strip the indicated number of buffs in a very precise order, and you will see that your Shades, Premonition, Shadow Shield and Energy Immunity are extremely high priority. In breach-intensive areas, don't even bother using those spells. Memorize something actually useful (hint: Nagas have very high Reflex Saves and Evasion/Imp Evasion, but they have relatively low Fortitude...Kill the casters with Death Spells before they cast Shadow Shield themselves.)

- Spellcasting Prodigy only affects your spells offensively. It has zero bearing on preventing dispels, nor breaches (see above).

- You mentioned your Wizard CL, but then you name a couple of Cleric spells that are often dispelled. Regardless, with CL 21 expect to be stripped completely by a lot of epic mobs that can dispel.

so as a MT I try not to be so buff heavy at first an sorta buff as I go since I always play with different people an such I don't know if they hang back or not, maybe it'd be better to buff them instead of me? That also sorta feels more scaffolding / fluid than say buffing like mad - I previously would do that but, ugh - I like that more because people are just like going, its not such a grind eck...

Buffing them, or yourself, won't matter, nor work with such CLs. Your best bet is to avoid dispel-heavy areas, and in breach-heavy areas, avoid buffing (anybody) with the spells on the breach list that are not easily replaced (ie: higher than 3rd-4th Circle ones).

Make intensive use of speed boosts to stay out of trouble (Expeditious Retreat, Haste, Battletide...w/e you want), and prepare quickened Displacements, Imp. Invisibilities (both for your and your friends) and Mirror Images (for you). Equip every +4 AC item (per type) you can find and + Saves ones as well, since your wards are as reliable as snow in hell.

I don't cast mirror image for instance usually unless the target approaches me - its more reactive/predictive than preventative/predictive I also try to hang back more when I see a caster who will dispel to see if they try to dispel my improved mage armor or snakeskin off an ally [which they tend not to be able to dispel either for whatever reason] because if they don't they're either already about to die, busy casting a different spell or will at times target me immediately if I approach depending circumstance.

If the target approaches you, it's too late, especially if a dispel flies your way in the same round.

You need to position yourself in such a way that makes it either impossible for enemies to reach you, or forces them through AoOs from your team/summons/allies. In the latter case, move around with speed boosts to avoid the most of their attacks, and cause more and more AoOs.

So yes the dispels hit an I actually mem an extra shades spell for premonition an the like - an for a while when I was weaker I memmed extra shadow shield - I didn't get extend til late too. [I dont know if prot vs spells helps vs dispel, looks like a nope] I think if I mt I would probably try to consider maximize as it would help with reserved feats but :S an random situations where high damage would be most useful

Nothing protects against dispels, except a high CL (which you don't, and can't have in such a build). Protection against Spells is just giving you +8 saves, which have nothing to do with dispels. Reserve Feats cannot be metamagicked. Also, they are objectively bad: never pick one if you aren't built with tons of feats to spare (like 30 Wizard, for instance).

High damage does not mean much on the server, where mobs have far, far higher HP than they normally should. Your best bet for spell economy is control and cloud spells, or summons: translated, damage over time, with burst spells as final blow only, if needed.

Regarding breach effects death ward was added and the list was fixed to be in line with the description (some energy immunity spells were missing) and the order was randomized a few months ago.

Valefort wrote:Regarding breach effects death ward was added and the list was fixed to be in line with the description (some energy immunity spells were missing) and the order was randomized a few months ago.

Shades is in it, too, by the way.

Randomizing the order is actually a very big problem for the discerning player. I am surprised that was approved. Random, uncontrollable elements when it comes to wards are as bad as it gets when you play a low HP, low saves character.

chad878262 wrote:My thought would be perhaps you grant 8/10 or 9/10 progression in the 'chosen' casting class and 6/10 in the secondary class. So a W15/C5/MT10 would have CL27 arcane (assuming 8/10 progression) and CL15 (but only 11 for purposes of spell levels, which would allow level 6 spells for a cleric/druid, level 5 for FS/SS) in the secondary class. You are still almost a full wizard with the added utility of divine, by not hitting CL29 you miss exactly 1 DC from epic caster level so a focused caster in one magic type will have higher DC than you.

Interesting approach, probably worth exploring.

The benchmarks should be Wizard20/Archmage10, and Cleric20/Hierophant10 in my opinion.

Mystic Theurge should end up being significantly inferior to both (for CL and, logically, top DCs as a consequence), but with access to both spellbooks.

How much inferior is debatable, of course.

chad878262 wrote:Nothing is defined, we've never approved any iteration of MT... However, it seems a popular class to implement. It's problematic because every suggestion has either been to OP or too weak. It's a difficult class to balance.

Yes, I'm summarizing what you've said that seems most likely up this point as per thread. I guess the word defined should be replaced with - what I don't know.

Also I imagine if an iteration was approved or developed past a users input it might already be in game x.x

Also I recognize I don't really do much server wise but, I still wanna see it x.x even if CL stopped at 19 before practiced spellcaster feats it'd be an improvement x.x

I was playing yesterday an I get dispelled a lot but, it still feels viable like I contribute to group .x.x.x.x.x

I dunno

what should I doooooo to help make this happen x.x

though just from looking at my char an reserve feats - it seems like a really bad idea b.c I get so much damage from sneak attack of spells x.x

but I also still wanna make a new character and go dungeoning but, might be silly without the mystic theurge [or maybe I should just start leveling a new char an then maybe mystic theurge would exist an I could just start leveling that

maybe if it were spells per day but 1 / 3 CL so 1 caster level every three levels but spells per day? an then bonus caste level at 10? x.x

It doesn't happen quickly.

Unless you are building the class, you need to find someone that can and will.

They need to build it and ensure it is working.

QC needs to test it and sign off on it.

Admins have to agree to put it in.

This is likely a matter of months from conception if not a year unless someone in each step is really gung-ho and I don't see that they are.

Bumping a thread every 12 hours won't speed it up.