Bear Warrior

[chad878262]

The problem is that a human gets 2 feats, any other race gets 1 at 1st level... the only way to select a rage is to burn one of those level 1 feats (or a future feat if you want to select it later)... It should be a free selection to chose which type of rage, but it isn't, it requires using a feat.

[Valefort]

I looked the code :

Bear warrior rage lasts (base CON modifier + 3) rounds, +5 rounds for each extend rage feat.

Regen is 2, 3, 4

Natural AC bonus is 2,5,7

EB is 2, 3, 4 (for bite and claws)

Base damage rolls for bite and claws are :
(Black Bear) 1d8 (bite), 1d6, 1d6
(Brown Bear) 1d10 (bite), 1d8, 1d8
(Dire Bear) 2d6 (bite), 1d10, 1d10

[Akroma666]

I looked the code :

Bear warrior rage lasts (base CON modifier + 3) rounds, +5 rounds for each extend rage feat.

Regen is 2, 3, 4

Natural AC bonus is 2,5,7

EB is 2, 3, 4 (for bite and claws)

Base damage rolls for bite and claws are :
(Black Bear) 1d8 (bite), 1d6, 1d6
(Brown Bear) 1d10 (bite), 1d8, 1d8
(Dire Bear) 2d6 (bite), 1d10, 1d10

Thanks! I'll do a proper write up for QC shortly.

[Akroma666]

Bear Warrior Proposal

Current
Rage Duration: Base (10) + base CON modifier + 3 rounds, +5 rounds for each extend rage feat.
Regen: 2, 3, 4 per round
Natural AC bonus: is 2, 5, 7
EB: 2, 3, 4 (for bite and claws)
Base damage rolls for bite and claws:
(Black Bear) 1d8 (bite), 1d6, 1d6
(Brown Bear) 1d10 (bite), 1d8, 1d8
(Dire Bear) 2d6 (bite), 1d10, 1d10

Proposal
Rage Duration: Base (10) + Post-transformation CON modifier rounds, +5(7) rounds for each extend rage feat.
Regen: 2, 3, 5 per round
Natural AC bonus: is 2, 4, 7
EB: Based on gloves, +damage also carries over, no longer dependent on form
Base damage rolls for bite and claws:
(Black Bear) 2d4 (bite), 1d4, 1d4
(Brown Bear) 2d6 (bite), 1d8, 1d8
(Dire Bear) 2d8 (bite), 2d4, 2d4
Add Feat: Slashing bonus damage for in and out of bear form:
Level 2: +1d4 Slashing Unarmed / +1d6 Slashing while Transformed
Level 6: +1d6 Slashing Unarmed / +2d4 Slashing while Transformed
Level 9: +2d4 Slashing Unarmed / +2d6 Slashing while Transformed
Move Improved knockdown to level 8

Progression
Level Features Gained
1 Knockdown, Bear shape: Black Bear
2 Slashing damage +1d4 Unarmed / +1d6 Transformed
3 Scent
4 Extend Rage I
5 Bear Shape: Brown Bear
6 Slashing damage +1d6 Unarmed / +2d4 Transformed
7 Extend Rage II
8 Improved Knockdown
9 Slashing damage +2d4 Unarmed / +2d6 Transformed
10 Bear shape: Dire Bear

Rational
Rage Duration: Changed the duration to scale more with the forms themselves rather than a base value. Since the bear warrior is already missing rage progression and cannot be recalculated, this would allow the form itself to give it a little boost to duration by a few rounds. This was the original intention of the form as per the wiki. If this duration is still not long enough I still stand firm in my increasing the duration of extended rage to 7 rounds instead of 5. The extra 2 rounds for all 4 feats would still not equal the loss of an additional rage because of the new base 10.

Regen: The major problem was the final dire bear form not being durable enough to withstand a fight, because of this I have upped the regen by 1 a round a total of 6 with a regen cloak and more with feats.

Natural AC bonus: The regen is the primary durability question for final form and the brown bear was a bit too durable for its own good, so I dropped this natural armor to 4. I was debating increasing the final form to 8, but I think the extra regen and damage bonus should help keep things more to the spirit of the barbarian which relies on damage reduction rather than AC. I would even go so far as to drop the natural AC on brown bear to 3.

EB: Enhancement bonus needs to change to be based on gloves. We have all these new gloves in the game and no means to use them other than a monk. The bear warrior itself has no means of dealing elemental damage to kill off trolls, so the warrior would have to change back to its original form to deal fire/acid damage, then change back to continue fighting and just burn rage uses. If we make these EB based on gloves instead, it would cap at +4EB and potentially some extra elemental damage.

Base damage rolls for bite and claws: I decided to reduce and change these a bit. The bite will obviously hit harder but the claw damage was reduced to fit the original 3.5 concepts. One highest AB attack that has the potential for more damage while lower AB attacks get slightly less damage. Brown bear's damage is really the only one that wont change much, and its in line for its level. With fighter feats and FoF damage bonus, I currently hit for mid 20's with PA on. Crit in the 50's. If I had an additional +2d4, I would deal low 30's and crit int he 70's, which is about on par for a level 16-20. And this is with a pure damage build, pure barbarian without unarmed mastery, specialization, and FoF +1d4 wouldn't hit as hard.

Add Feat Slashing damage: This was an add-on to bring the bear warrior more in line with pure barbarian or fighter damage. I kept the original numbers and I have decided to add the additional slashing damage to all the damage rolls as the bear warrior progresses to show that their transformations are getting stronger. This makes up for the slightly mitigated damage changes to the forms and gives them bonuses to their bite and claws as the character progresses. I also thought this would be nice to add a weaker version to the unarmed damage while not transformed. This could be a great RP point to say that the bear warrior can transform his hands to fur covered clawed humanoid hands. As they progress, the learn to transform their body a bit more efficiently.

Move Improved knockdown to level 8: I decided to move this so they actually got something at level 8 and improved knockdown isn't a big deal for level 10 when the bear warrior is already getting dire bear form.

[chad878262]

Nothing in there over-powered Akroma, I would just make a couple of changes...

- Rage duration, instead of 10, I recommend it be 8, since that is what the standard rage timer is based on (was 3, increased by 5 rounds to 8).

- For the damage bonus, I recommend we stick with the documented increases (other than level 9 increase which matches the earlier increase)... So 1d4, 2d4, 2d6 bonus damage. I also recommend the damage is only in bear form as I see no reason for it to carry over. You can also have some bonus damage by mixing in fighter levels since all the unarmed feats carry over in bear form...4 levels of Fighter gets you Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery: Unarmed... Fighter 12/Barb 8/BW 10 would be able to get all the epic feats for AB/Damage as well, which would still work in human form.

- Why lower the Natural AC in Brown bear from 5 down to 4? I read your reasoning, but I see it as an unnecessary change since it's only 1 AC...

Other than these three comments I would personally not have an issue with increasing the regen in Dire Bear by 1, nor with removing the EB and allowing gloves to transfer to the form. However, I will reiterate that I would RATHER see all of the defects with the class fixed/addressed and THEN look at any necessary changes. First on my list would be to replace the static +3 damage with the 1-4 / 2-8 / 2-12... Then I would look at allowing for either EB and bonus damage from gloves to carry over (though realize slashing damage would not stack) or allowing for a specialized feat that allows BW to apply acid/fire/some-kinda-energy damage when in Bear Form. Honestly I think it would be really cool if there were 2-4 BW specific Feats that improved their Bear Form.

The only nerf I think should be implemented is there was no negative when bear form ends... It's like Bear Form gets free Tireless Rage...I think that should be changed, since otherwise there is not much reason to take additional barbarian levels, as opposed to just taking an extra rage feat and fighter levels to vastly improve EB and damage.

[Akroma666]

Nothing in there over-powered Akroma, I would just make a couple of changes...

- Rage duration, instead of 10, I recommend it be 8, since that is what the standard rage timer is based on (was 3, increased by 5 rounds to 8).

All base rage got a +5 tot he base taking it to 10. Keeping this rage on par with normal rage is important because the bear warrior itself does not get rage progression and would basically hinder them in the end because they are missing out on 2+ minutes of rage. and extra 8 seconds (2 rounds) is not a lot. And when mixed with the +2 bonus from extend, it makes up for a lost rage when you get all 4.

- For the damage bonus, I recommend we stick with the documented increases (other than level 9 increase which matches the earlier increase)... So 1d4, 2d4, 2d6 bonus damage. I also recommend the damage is only in bear form as I see no reason for it to carry over. You can also have some bonus damage by mixing in fighter levels since all the unarmed feats carry over in bear form...4 levels of Fighter gets you Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery: Unarmed... Fighter 12/Barb 8/BW 10 would be able to get all the epic feats for AB/Damage as well, which would still work in human form.

You can start with what's documented, but even with a max damage build, it still only hits for subpar.. specially for a damage dealing class. It needs damage or more AC to survive, specially later levels in the game. I would love to see this class more of a scaling damage. I put the bonus damage out of bear forum as bonus unarmed damage because while in normal form the damage is SIGNIFICANTLY lacking.. even with a weapon. I would be happy with replacing the pitiful 1d3 damage with with the listed numbers: +1d4, +1d6, +2d4. Its not a big change, but its something to show that the warrior is not just pitifully punching things and relys on only his bear form for not only damage, but EVERYTHING else. You stack a bunch of unarmed feats and bonuses only to hit for 20's.. as a pure offensive fighter? I don't agree with that.. I stand strong in my assessment of the the damage numbers, but then again, im not QC nor am I in charge of balance. I just ask that you remember, this class is intended to be offensive, not defensive. Which leads me to:

- Why lower the Natural AC in Brown bear from 5 down to 4? I read your reasoning, but I see it as an unnecessary change since it's only 1 AC...

Honestly, I was thinking about this, If the damage goes up to what I proposed, I would drop the AC as well. I think brown bear should be 3 AC resulting in: 2, 3, 7. The dire bear AC bonus is already not enough to sustain it in the late portion of the game. I don't think this would make a big difference.

Other than these three comments I would personally not have an issue with increasing the regen in Dire Bear by 1, nor with removing the EB and allowing gloves to transfer to the form. However, I will reiterate that I would RATHER see all of the defects with the class fixed/addressed and THEN look at any necessary changes. First on my list would be to replace the static +3 damage with the 1-4 / 2-8 / 2-12... Then I would look at allowing for either EB and bonus damage from gloves to carry over (though realize slashing damage would not stack) or allowing for a specialized feat that allows BW to apply acid/fire/some-kinda-energy damage when in Bear Form. Honestly I think it would be really cool if there were 2-4 BW specific Feats that improved their Bear Form.

Dire Bear Regen: Dire bear needs help, the forms themselves start even, then brown bear is VERY strong, then Dire bear falls off hard for epic content. I am trying to baby step my way into nurfing brown bear, and boosting dire bear a bit. I think the +5 regen and the -2AC to brown bear does that. I feel brown bear's AC is a bit high, and the regen on dire bear is the most important problem with the form because you CANT shift back to use heal kits. You need to stay in that form for survival, giving it a single point of regen will hopefully make the time between fights regenerating a bit more helpful to the longevity of the form. If you look at the original wiki before I edited the info, the regen was supposed to be +5 anyways. This would also hopefully prevent shifting back at the end of the duration and killing yourself.
Claws: I dont think that the flat enhancement bonus would benefit this class at all. We have new monk gloves and old ones hitting the auction house all the time, the class should be taking advantage of these. Even with an epic pair on myself out of rage i hit for garbage and in rage i cant get my bonus acid damage to trolls. Making these bonuses feats would be a step int he wrong direction because the class is already feat heavy. You need the Epic DR to be more tanky, or the fighter weapon mastery to deal more damage. You most certainly need more uses of extended rage, and if you propose taking away the free tireless rage, theres another feat. Remember, barbarian doesn't get too many feats. The most you could get with pure barbarian is 12 with most of you precious feats in epic levels including extended and extra rage to make up for the lost progression. I think a simple mechanic change would fix this as the most a transformation would get would be an additional +1d4 elemental damage from the gloves. You cant enhance them with GMW, you cant add fire weapons, keen, or any other spell to them. Its balanced.

The only nerf I think should be implemented is there was no negative when bear form ends... It's like Bear Form gets free Tireless Rage...I think that should be changed, since otherwise there is not much reason to take additional barbarian levels, as opposed to just taking an extra rage feat and fighter levels to vastly improve EB and damage.

I would be okay with this It would focus more on taking the extra barbarian level. But I would not suggest this unless the other boosts were implemented as well. The class needs more outside of rage.. otherwise its just a bad barbarian or druid. I think the proposed duration and damage increases would fix the out of rage bit, and then a slight negative when the transformation wears off is warranted.

As you said, need the bugs fixed first. As of now, the toolbar for knockdown and charge doesn't even work and you constantly shift in and out of rage burning your uses and messing with your stats.

[Valefort]

Dire Bear

30 (base AC) +7 (natural AC) + 4 (enhance bonus from chest/bracer) + 2 (half enhance bonus on shield) + 4 (deflection AC) = 47 AC

Then you have the usual AC boosting feats and tumble, LoH (+1 AC) is taken routinely on melee builds and same for taking a class with tumble as a class skill (+3 AC).

You're already at 51 AC, considering 45 AC is okay I definitely don't think Dire bear needs any help AC wise.

Damage wise, best builds usually include fighter 4+ and fist of the forest :

(Bite) 2d6 + 4 (EB) + 2 (weapon spec) + 2 (unarmed mastery) + 3 (power attack) + 1d4 (FoTF bonus) + 6 (Dire Bear gets +12 STR) + 7 (a low base STR) = 2d6 + 1d4 + 24 = 33.5 average

No problem there either this is totally okay damage in bear form.

Out of bear form your damage drops to 20 ish damage, low but playable.

AB

30 (BAB) + 13 (STR mod) + 4 (EB) + 1 (weapon focus) + 2 (unarmed mastery) -3 (PA) = 47 AB

Again that is high, and that's without any help or spells.

[chad878262]

30 (base AC) +7 (natural AC) + 4 (enhance bonus from chest/bracer) + 2 (half enhance bonus on shield) + 4 (deflection AC) = 47 AC

See my post on AC... Deflection (or dodge) only gets added if no armor is worn...However, currently wearing +4 armor gives double bonus so the final numbers would still be correct. Just posting this as it is a bug that should be addressed.

[Akroma666]

(Bite) 2d6 + 4 (EB) + 2 (weapon spec) + 2 (unarmed mastery) + 3 (power attack) + 1d4 (FoTF bonus) + 6 (Dire Bear gets +12 STR) + 7 (a low base STR) = 2d6 + 1d4 + 24 = 33.5 average

No problem there either this is totally okay damage in bear form.

Out of bear form your damage drops to 20 ish damage, low but playable.

Now you don't see a problem with adding slashing damage and dropping the rolls a bit do you? It would balance to a slightly higher average of about 40 for the bite on max level (+2d6). And even less on the claws. I honestly can't see a problem with this slight change and a slight +1 boost to regen. It would help between fights as i stated.

I think you are right in your AC calculations and since it is still gear dependent, even with max epic gear it's on par for a low AC fighter.. which is where it should be. I would even say you could drop the +7 to +5 or +6 as long as it has the slight damage boost and regen.

[Valefort]

While I don't see a problem upping any of the numbers you proposed.. I don't see a good reason either as these numbers look plenty playable to me as they are

Bugs are something else though, thanks chad for pointing that last one to me, I missed it.

Another thing .. I remember floating transformation messages when shapechanging, I guess those could be removed ?

[Wyatt]

I'm not sure how 51 ac is considered on par for a low ac fighter. I can barely pass 40 on 2h fighter builds without short duration consumables. I suppose 51 ac without consumables could be considered low...for a 70ac FvS. Having 50+ ac plus bonus damage plus fast healing 5 stacking with a regen items seems very very strong. Especially with limited feat investment requieed. Then again, I have never tried a bear warrior so I'd have to defer to QC.

[Akroma666]

While I don't see a problem upping any of the numbers you proposed.. I don't see a good reason either as these numbers look plenty playable to me as they are

I have to disagree, before the bugs the class was already hardly played. The damage is just too low, AC mediocre to average, and the lack of combat or out of combat abilities is a huge detourent. The class is mechanically just boring and subpar. A slight dmg boost with a focus in staying in form and getting the most out of the duration via regen and abilities is worth the trade-off lack of options.

Bugs are something else though, thanks chad for pointing that last one to me, I missed it.

I agree that the bugs are the current primary detourent. The class after the server migration is virtually unplayable with the constant shifting in and out of forms.

Another thing .. I remember floating transformation messages when shapechanging, I guess those could be removed ?

Oh man! I didn't even think about this! I would loooove that garbage removed. And even the chat bar log reduced to a single instance. Nice eye!

I'm not sure how 51 ac is considered on par for a low ac fighter. I can barely pass 40 on 2h fighter builds without short duration consumables. I suppose 51 ac without consumables could be considered low...for a 70ac FvS. Having 50+ ac plus bonus damage plus fast healing 5 stacking with a regen items seems very very strong. Especially with limited feat investment requieed. Then again, I have never tried a bear warrior so I'd have to defer to QC.

A fighter caster can get aroundid 50s with feat investors and +4 gear. With wards even higher. The wards won't affect bear warrior as the bulk comes from the +7 natural. You could get +2 from improved mage armor. So it's on par with a fighter. But you would lose your boots AC and your shield and armor base AC.

Fighter: 10 base + mfp +8, gloves +4, shield +6(8), boots +4, amulet +4, deflection +4, Dex +3, feats +4, skills +3 = 50-52

Granted it costs more gold to get there, but you have full access to all your feats, abilities, and can heal kit yourself. Not to mention you can use wands.

[mrm3ntalist]

I have to disagree, before the bugs the class was already hardly played. The damage is just too low,

30+ damage is not too low

AC mediocre to average,

50+AC is not mediocre nor average

and the lack of combat or out of combat abilities is a huge detourent. The class is mechanically just boring and subpar. A slight dmg boost with a focus in staying in form and getting the most out of the duration via regen and abilities is worth the trade-off lack of options.

The only change i like, is the EB and damage bonuses from gauntlets to transfer to the bear form.

[Valefort]

The lack of abilities is admittedly boring. Maybe add something like a "Roar" on the action bar that actually cast warcry (with details like CL and use frequency to think about).

[Akroma666]

I have to disagree, before the bugs the class was already hardly played. The damage is just too low,

30+ damage is not too low

AC mediocre to average,

50+AC is not mediocre nor average

and the lack of combat or out of combat abilities is a huge detourent. The class is mechanically just boring and subpar. A slight dmg boost with a focus in staying in form and getting the most out of the duration via regen and abilities is worth the trade-off lack of options.

The only change i like, is the EB and damage bonuses from gauntlets to transfer to the bear form.

Hey if that's what you guys want to go with, sure.. but originally the damage bonuses and regen were supposed to be implemented and were on the wiki but never were finished. Mark my words, even if you fixed the bugs, and took the EB transfer over, no one is going to play a gimped druid, weaker damage barbarian, or pigeon holed fighter. And that's all the class is without the slight buffs and nerfs proposed. The class damage would scale better with the slashing bonuses over the bear warrior levels and provide a slight boost. As i said, drop the dire bear AC in favor of more damage. It's a damage class.. in pnp it's supposed to get +20 STR, so we fill the lost damage with slashing bonuses.