Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

If you are concerned about the intelligence of half-orcs, just put some points into their intelligence attribute when you are creating them. The racial modifiers are meant to shift around the averages to get a feel for what they excel at lore-wise and what they suffer from. The only orcs that don't suffer from intelligence penalties are Orogs, and Thayan Orcs. One from the underdark, the other are magically bred and engineered. An intelligence penalty is certainly not a major issue, I have played several half-orcs as weapon masters and casters alike and my main is a gray orc wizard and it isn't that bad.

thebeasttt wrote:

ARHicks00 wrote: 1. Depends on what classes. Humans are well rounded, but not the best. Elves are better at being Rangers and Rogue than humans along with Halflings. Dwarves are better at being at Fighters and Gold dwarves are better at being Paladins. Humans and Elves are pretty even as Paladins since both are likely to land 12 Constitution, though Elves get a slight edge with the immunity to enchantment. Halflings also even with Elven and Human and they can also become EDM paladins despite a strength disadvantage. (Though they can only use shortswords without monkey grip to help them use a longsword) I could keep going, but that would redundant as you would find a lot of race are either even or can do better humans in certain aspect, but those races end up specializing as a result of it whereas humans do not. (Their biggest advantage) The only race that humans are better than are a non-customized half-elf and a half-orc.

Almost none of your examples are accurate. The reason Human's are so powerful is because the vast majority of builds are either feat starved or skill starved. Dwarf fighter? Skill starved. Elf rogue? Feat starved. Human addresses both of these issues, on top of the underrated advantage of having no preferred class. This opens up a plethora of builds, all at the cost of 0 ECL.

Halflings are great but are also pigeonholed into just a few classes. Even for a highly specialized build, Humans provide a feat and skills that every other race does not. I'm not sure why you made so many paladin examples but Aasimar dominate this department anyways and is one of the few races on par with Human. That's not to say Human's are always the best but there's a reason they make up 50% of the server.

1. Actually, it's super accurate consider a Ranger gets two modes to sense enemies while maintaining normal speed, traps, and stealth characters making Elves superior as Rangers over humans. You don't nrrf a con higher than 12 to boot so that -2 to Con make sense in this situation. As I said, I could go on, but the human's biggest advantage is they are well rounded. They are by no mean superior, nice try though. They can match a lot of race in certain areas and sure they are better than some races in other areas such as a better bard than a Half-Orc or certain Gensais, but that's about it.

2. Fighters aren't know for their skills so being short one skill may hurt them slightly roleplaying wise, but at least the Dwarf is working with more abilities to make up for it. Again with #1, Human have versatility, which is their greatest strength. Aasimar dominating? Yeah, they get extra points to put towards attributes that matter, but ECL hurts their progression. Not that it is a bad idea, but my point about the other races is that they match or excel what the human does when it comes to classes. You pretty much proved my argument right with that example.

3. LOL, at thinking Halfling get pigeonholed. As I said, Halfling can paladin and get EDM despite their size, but they force to use a shortsword. You can play them as fighters too, but again, you're looking at using lightweapons to make up for what they can't get as if they were medium size. Unlike the Half-Orc, Halfling gets ONE -2 to attributes leaving them 4 other attributes to put their points and they work around their strength. Half-Orc has a different problem as he only has 3 attributes he can work around Con, Str, and Wisdom. This guarantee to pigeonhole them as fighters, barbarians, druids (who are jus barbarians who can cast magic), and battle clerics with little Charisma. You can play other classes, but you dismissal compare to other races and you working with less feats and skills compare to said classes, which I mentioned in a few post back. Again, other classes excel at those classes I noted so this mean Half-Orcs excel at nothing or they are force to be pigeonholed as big dumb orcs.

We can keep going in circles, but the truth is truth, Half-Orcs need a upgrade. Right now, I'm not seeing a counter argument, but false accusations and frustration. (no insult) Saying giving +2 to one attribute and reducing the negative to just one calls for ECL, not only is that person being dishonest, but the same rule of the thumb has to applied across the board for other race. I'm calling it out for what it is. This is no insult or trolling. If you are honest saying this, that's basically what you are doing. We're adults here so let's call the situation for what it is. I've read careful over every post, but every post is either filled with extra bias with hint of player snob or it said poster doesn't under how balance work. And worst, people trying to use the manual for justification, yet we've diverge from the manual in both gameplay and attributes.

To put it simple, if you are not going to apply to ECL across the board for an orc change or you can't justify the +1 Con and blooded feats (As no positive example has been provided for the past 3 pages), then this race better bonus than one provided. As I said, after being with the orc, the +1 just floats and you can add it to any attribute except his negative attribute, but it does nothing for said attribute.

mrm3ntalist wrote:Mechanically half orcs are great for the server

As I before the mechanic concern orcs haven't really changed so they work here as they would any server. The blooded feat is bugged and does not added itself your to your feat list and the +1 is completely useless after toying with when building. A +3 increase to two attribute and bugged starter feat (It feels like I'm taking crazy pills as I noted this several times) with -4 two attributes is not sign of balance, but continue telling yourself that.

AlfarinIcebreaker wrote:I think that Half Orcs are OK (especially with new additions to Barbarian class), just that maybe we should replace Blooded feat with something more useful - say Improved Initiative perhaps. That works fine in a RP sense and opens up path to Epic Charge if that is your thing. Blooded does nothing.

Dude you just proved my point that other board members trying to deny was not the case, which is pigeonholing.

Razzaband wrote:If you are concerned about the intelligence of half-orcs, just put some points into their intelligence attribute when you are creating them. The racial modifiers are meant to shift around the averages to get a feel for what they excel at lore-wise and what they suffer from. The only orcs that don't suffer from intelligence penalties are Orogs, and Thayan Orcs. One from the underdark, the other are magically bred and engineered. An intelligence penalty is certainly not a major issue, I have played several half-orcs as weapon masters and casters alike and my main is a gray orc wizard and it isn't that bad.

See #1 up above and yeah it is.

There is nothing to fix with H-Orcs, the race is fine as it is (now).

I play and have played some of them here, they are one of the better races for a melee oriented build.
(I would be really annoyed, if the stats would get any downgrade and mess up my builds.)

If anything than Fire genasi and Water genasi need an upgrade, as they are ECL+1 and get not much.

AR.. you continue use the term "orc" when i believe you mean "half orc". there is both orc and half orc as a playable race on the server. and so i have used this assumption in my posts. correct me if i am wrong.

you say there is has not been a good argument to dissuade you from what you are proposing. well i would say that you have not provided a good argument to say that a wholesale change should be made and balance is outright needed. just hasn't happened. the half-orc makes a really good melee/strength based PC. and to me, this sounds about right. currently on the server are both a H/O paladin and sorcerer that absolutely kick butt. formidable would be selling them short.

you want to make a unicorn, but don't want to be burdened with what comes with that, is not a good excuse to make this change.

guess all the hin FB/WM will have to deal with that as well.

After having played many, many half orcs in my time here I would say that they could be fixed by just one change. Change their Favored Class to ANY. No changes to stats or feats or anything, just that. That would give them the same flexibility as other Halfies and if you want to play one you accept the Stat challenges that come with it. If that change was made, I would be playing them exclusively.

One thing Half-Orcs have over Grey Orcs is they don't start outright banned from civilization. Half-Orcs can walk around unimpeded as long as they follow the laws of the land. Grey Orcs walking around civilized-guarded areas are god-modding the NPCs, who would react to the monster race being in their presence. The exception is here:

viewtopic.php?p=586424#p586424

IC/OOC Nature of Quests
As it stands, it is open to players to treat individual quests their own characters undertake as IC; alternatively they can treat the quests as OOC. As an exception to this, when undertaking quests in settlements in which they would not be permitted (Baldur's Gate, Ulgoth's Beard, and "uncivlised" orcs in Nashkel and Beregost), Grey Orcs must use an AFK tag, not interact IC within the settlement and keep the time spent there to a minimum.

The best examples and arguments about logical changes has sadly not come from the OP ARHicks00. Like change Blooded to X, or Favored class to Any, or many more.

You keep asking for examples but giving very few yourself. Mostly that you hate -2 Int for the most part. Toss out more ideas then that, like many have, if you can not get past your wish for no int penalty then your reveling your bias toward some Class you want and not any big picture. As some pointed out if you want more skill points, don't use the +1 Con in your mix, and add the attribute points saved from that so called useless bonus into Int.
The only true disadvantage that can't be easily overcome is playing a Wizard, or Sorcerer that I see. Please be a little more diverse in your ideas ARHicks00.

I think one thing your missing is that a Cha base of 6 (-2 penalty) is no more a disgusting brute then a character with a base 10 (+2 bonus) is a master orator. So your argument of them being pigeonholed as big dumb orcs is not sound.

Stat bonus/penalty are not all the same in D@D for balance. Things like Str and Dex are worth more then others, Cha comes in at the bottom. This is the formula used thru out it's history. Perhaps Cha has more value then in the past with more classes invented that use it that did not exist before. Based on this your well within the range of other races with a half Orc. So the best way to even them is not attribute but other bonus'.

With that I'm out of this like I should have been on page 1
But I do hope that those good examples other posters have made might have some use unlike ARHicks00's rants. I disagree with his tone, and attacking right off the bat, you only hurt your argument that way and in no way help.

ARHicks00 wrote:

Razzaband wrote:If you are concerned about the intelligence of half-orcs, just put some points into their intelligence attribute when you are creating them. The racial modifiers are meant to shift around the averages to get a feel for what they excel at lore-wise and what they suffer from. The only orcs that don't suffer from intelligence penalties are Orogs, and Thayan Orcs. One from the underdark, the other are magically bred and engineered. An intelligence penalty is certainly not a major issue, I have played several half-orcs as weapon masters and casters alike and my main is a gray orc wizard and it isn't that bad.

See #1 up above and yeah it is.

Actually no it isn't. Intelligence only affects how many languages you learn, how many skill points you get, a few specific DCs, and a few feats. For most cases 13 int is really all that is needed for most int-based combat feats which is incredibly easy to get even with a -2 int penalty. If you want more int, go play another race, someone with orc-blood isn't for you because you are choosing not to make the attribute point investment for it. If you are simply complaining about attribute, wait until you get to the orc lore which is pretty one-dimensional with deities and cultural behaviors. I have not had any problems playing my orc wizard in terms of spell DC or number of spells. Sure I am slightly set back but I knew that choosing the race. This isn't pathfinder where almost every core race's stats are fairly similar, you are playing a game based on 3.5 D&D.

Kanada wrote:After having played many, many half orcs in my time here I would say that they could be fixed by just one change. Change their Favored Class to ANY. No changes to stats or feats or anything, just that. That would give them the same flexibility as other Halfies and if you want to play one you accept the Stat challenges that come with it. If that change was made, I would be playing them exclusively.

I agree with this for a decent balance if you want more human traits out of them.

DM Pun Pun wrote:One thing Half-Orcs have over Grey Orcs is they don't start outright banned from civilization. Half-Orcs can walk around unimpeded as long as they follow the laws of the land. Grey Orcs walking around civilized-guarded areas are god-modding the NPCs, who would react to the monster race being in their presence. The exception is here:

viewtopic.php?p=586424#p586424

IC/OOC Nature of Quests
As it stands, it is open to players to treat individual quests their own characters undertake as IC; alternatively they can treat the quests as OOC. As an exception to this, when undertaking quests in settlements in which they would not be permitted (Baldur's Gate, Ulgoth's Beard, and "uncivlised" orcs in Nashkel and Beregost), Grey Orcs must use an AFK tag, not interact IC within the settlement and keep the time spent there to a minimum.

Please note in addition to DM Pun Pun's post on IC civilized surface areas in general that for Amn IC there is this IC exception as well under Amnian law in Nashkel and Beregost:

viewtopic.php?p=559345#p559345

-Races hostile, violent, wicked, and evil by nature, are hereby banned from Beregost and Nashkel and their Environs. Orcbloods of a civilized nature and that have business to conduct in Amn may be permitted at the discretion of the local Amnian authorities.‏

DM Dialectic wrote:

DM Pun Pun wrote:One thing Half-Orcs have over Grey Orcs is they don't start outright banned from civilization. Half-Orcs can walk around unimpeded as long as they follow the laws of the land. Grey Orcs walking around civilized-guarded areas are god-modding the NPCs, who would react to the monster race being in their presence. The exception is here:

viewtopic.php?p=586424#p586424

IC/OOC Nature of Quests
As it stands, it is open to players to treat individual quests their own characters undertake as IC; alternatively they can treat the quests as OOC. As an exception to this, when undertaking quests in settlements in which they would not be permitted (Baldur's Gate, Ulgoth's Beard, and "uncivlised" orcs in Nashkel and Beregost), Grey Orcs must use an AFK tag, not interact IC within the settlement and keep the time spent there to a minimum.

Please note in addition to DM Pun Pun's post on IC civilized surface areas in general that for Amn IC there is this IC exception as well under Amnian law in Nashkel and Beregost:

viewtopic.php?p=559345#p559345

-Races hostile, violent, wicked, and evil by nature, are hereby banned from Beregost and Nashkel and their Environs. Orcbloods of a civilized nature and that have business to conduct in Amn may be permitted at the discretion of the local Amnian authorities.‏

being cast as an orc is the worst part about being a half-orc. RP is harder. the server is lonely. and PvP is expected. but that is what makes it fun and exciting. and not for everyone.

ARHicks00 wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:Mechanically half orcs are great for the server

As I before the mechanic concern orcs haven't really changed so they work here as they would any server. The blooded feat is bugged and does not added itself your to your feat list and the +1 is completely useless after toying with when building. A +3 increase to two attribute and bugged starter feat (It feels like I'm taking crazy pills as I noted this several times) with -4 two attributes is not sign of balance, but continue telling yourself that.

Half orcs are as good as humans on builds that they need to max either STR or CON and better when you need to max both (Epic DR/Regen ) builds.

The -1 on INT is genius, gimping orcs just a bit when they go for INT builds but being able to hit the INT 13 with single points so that they can get the Fighter feats. Who ever thought the bonuses and negatives about half orcs is/was a visionary. Half orc is a race to compare other races with

Tell us, if you havent already, which builds half orcs are not as good as humans? Otherwise, continue telling yourself that half orcs are gimped

Theodore01 wrote:I play and have played some of them here, they are one of the better races for a melee oriented build.

Except the NWN2DB consensus disagree with this if you ever researched it. Most of the heavy melee combat oriented builds are human. Majority of the best builds are EDM, Frenzy berserker, or weapon master builds that heavily feat based. (Which I just looked up)

Stonebar wrote:The best examples and arguments about logical changes has sadly not come from the OP ARHicks00. Like change Blooded to X, or Favored class to Any, or many more.

You mean anything that won't put them on par with other races. No arguing there.

mrm3ntalist wrote:Half orcs are as good as humans on builds that they need to max either STR or CON and better when you need to max both (Epic DR/Regen ) builds.

I'm not even going to argue this anymore as this will continue going in circles about something is wrong but will continue being the ignored elephant in the room. As I waited for proof, none was given so I'm just step away from this as the opposing posts have already been address and debunk. A rebuttal can be made, but at this point I'd have just to copy and paste material from my previous posts to address the same issue over and over again. I won't be making any further posts.

ARHicks00 wrote: I'm not even going to argue this anymore as this will continue going in circles about something is wrong but will continue being the ignored elephant in the room. As I waited for proof, none was given so I'm just step away from this as the opposing posts have already been address and debunk. A rebuttal can be made, but at this point I'd have just to copy and paste material from my previous posts to address the same issue over and over again. I won't be making any further posts.

You come with a request to buff the half orc race. I ask you what builds in specific you have an issue with because as i explained briefly, Half orcs are designed to favor melee combat byulds while having a slight disadvantage on INT builds.

- If you want to play an int based builds eg SB, wizards etc then you are at a disadvantage.
- If you want to play an STR and/or CON build then you are at an advantage
- if you dont have any specific build examples to give, why half-orcs are not good enough ( even though all races are not optimal for some builds ) then like you said it would be better if you

Edit Rule #2 -Hawke...

mrm3ntalist wrote:

ARHicks00 wrote: You come with a request to buff the half orc race.

I'm not even going to read the rest of it, but I will truly make this my last post as I have had similar to debate on other servers for example, Paladins getting a full spell progression back in Dalelands. (Ditto with the Ranger Class and their pet) Got the exact same response as I got here. (even the DMs were in disagreement) I left and came back a year later. Now Dalelands had a healthy population when I left and came back. However, there was one small change. The server had 4 players paladin who use to roam Dalelands, but after a year, there were only two. Also the DM had finally upgraded the paladin (full spellcasting and PrCs) and ranger (Ditto) during that year. Two things you can conclude from this...the upgrades disinterest the players or the upgrades were added to make the players more interested in playing paladins.

Also similar stuff happened in NWN 1 a decade ago concerning races and classes. And I'm out.

ARHicks00 wrote:And I'm out.

I already miss you