Autostill + Eldritch Knight

[chad878262]

yes, 21 or better gets 5 APR... It is very difficult to make a viable arcane gish without some levels in eldritch knight since it is the only high BAB class that also get 9/10 CL progression.

[mrm3ntalist]

Actually, if it isn't what QC thinks, then what is QC good for? I ask this totally seriously, despite your above comment that says nothing about the Thread/OP except that you are displeased? Or am I wrong?

Because:

Quality Control: The Quality Control team (or "QC") is in charge of testing new content for balance and bugs; for reporting bugs with existing, released content; and for troubleshooting exploits and other problems. They play an important role in ensuring that developers produce content that is consistent with the server's existing content and fair, and hold developers accountable for what is released. Ideally, nothing should be released live without a nod from QC.

I underlined what I think QC should be thinking about, as it is advertised. Tell me if I'm wrong, if I am wrong. And I'll shut up!

Not displeased or anything. Sipping my coffee while listening to music before going out for a beer - or two.

Obviously what QC thinks matters to some. Obviously what Maecius thinks matters to most... You focus on the wrong thing i am trying to say. The answer to your question should already be known to you. It hasnt changed since you were an HDM.

What i am trying to reply to is for things like the quote below:

All I am saying is that QC could lighten up a bit and

For example, if we "lighten up" and do what Calodan says then others will think otherwise. You already asked what QC thinks about what Calodan said. Imagine us actualyl doing it Then if QC/Devs do what you say, someone else will ( not might, but will ) not like it and post about. And goes on and on and on.

I think it is my turn to say

Lighten up guys and enjoy this game

[chad878262]

Lighten up guys and enjoy this game

Truer words were never spoken.

[Calodan]

Not really a true GISH with only 4 attacks in a round. To me a GISH is a hybrid fighter/caster. Weighing in on the side of fighter more. You really need at least 5 attacks in a round to be effective in close combat at all. They are supposed to in my mind be able to fight close quarters and use the occasional melee touch attack spell or so while fighting to do greater damage as they fight but their one true form is being a magically warded fighter only on the arcane side of it.

i would need a BAB of >20 for 5?

Yes I think so. That is the point though. Right now we have little option to reach at least 25-28 CL and get BAB high enough to have a truly viable GISH. The Dispel fix pretty much ruined about 100+ builds for viability with how the server is balanced. So either we get more PRCs and things to up CL on these builds or we eliminate dispels from standard monsters and lower caster spawn rates significantly to lower dispel and breach rates enough that when playing normally on the server everyday we do not get dispelled as much. At least that is my train of thought. Has the Dispel caps been put back to normal or are we still operating on uber caps as well as having the amount of dispels we have? This alone might mitigate at least some of the issues with GISH builds. Right now no one wants to really use them because it is too bloody hard to use them since you can not complete a dungeon without resting and very few dungeons have rest points in them.........Every dungeon should have one on every level. Resting should be allowed long as the door is shut and enemy are not nearby. Just my train of thought though. I mean the easiest fix for this problem is to create a rest space in each dungeon (Not hard there are rooms in every one with doors just create it ther) and turn off the rest timer. Now we can just adjust and play on. Players who know they will get dispelled will plan to run that dungeon like so. The issue of getting dispelled goes down drastically since I can go rest and rebuff long as I can kill the monsters in the immediate area of course....

[aaron22]

yes, 21 or better gets 5 APR... It is very difficult to make a viable arcane gish without some levels in eldritch knight since it is the only high BAB class that also get 9/10 CL progression.

took levels of EK lost two CL's but gained the 5 BAB to make 5 attacks.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261017

[Calodan]

yes, 21 or better gets 5 APR... It is very difficult to make a viable arcane gish without some levels in eldritch knight since it is the only high BAB class that also get 9/10 CL progression.

took levels of EK lost two CL's but gained the 5 BAB to make 5 attacks.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261017

Much better could be viable in most areas. The Crit immune is what really drives that build with a melee touch hand attack as well from PM. WIth the right weaponry it could do fairly well and the RP would be great! Here is what I have been toying around with myself.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?260950

[Steve]

Lighten up guys and enjoy this game

Truer words were never spoken.

SEND BEER!!!!

[Calodan]

Lighten up guys and enjoy this game

Truer words were never spoken.

SEND BEER!!!!

With the kind of conversations we get into send Tequila!

For the record I do enjoy the server as is. I do have things I would like to see just like Steve does we all have them. This is a thread to explore what can be done a bit. We do not all agree but we can find common ground if we try!

[aaron22]

yes, 21 or better gets 5 APR... It is very difficult to make a viable arcane gish without some levels in eldritch knight since it is the only high BAB class that also get 9/10 CL progression.

took levels of EK lost two CL's but gained the 5 BAB to make 5 attacks.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261017

Much better could be viable in most areas. The Crit immune is what really drives that build with a melee touch hand attack as well from PM. WIth the right weaponry it could do fairly well and the RP would be great! Here is what I have been toying around with myself.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?260950

these builds seem to be pretty tough. i am not feeling a large power gap. i hate comparing builds to FvS's. there are just some builds that are going to be above others. always will. the PBers are too good at finding optimizes.

i could also see a foresee a build that utilizes swashy to gain some damage at the expense of some CL's and forgoing the auto stills to open more epic feats. ie EP/EW. they would just be a totally different flavor of the same ice cream.

[chad878262]

That's the 'standard' Arcane Gish, Aaron... To Big J's point he has a valid concern that there are not a lot of options for Arcane Gishes... Essentially you have the build Calodan posted where a few feats might change (like maybe 2, at most) or you might see someone take W13 and DS7 to get CL30 at the expense of 2 BAB...Or you have builds that take PM for more defense. These builds would generally be something like W7/PM10/EK10/DS3 which gets a BAB of 21 for 5 APR, but even with buffs it won't be great at hitting things. It also has CL28 though and has a lot of really nice defensive qualities.

Some might use Fighter or some other classes in their gish builds, or there are builds that use SD or Assassin to get HiPS, but in general they suffer either in terms of CL, AB or in most cases, both. That is not to say these builds can't be viable. Intelligent use of HiPS (for instance) is good protection from dispel/breach. Another option is to have a buffed summon so that, if a dispel hits your summon you still have some time to get away. There are not a lot of real options with Arcane Gish right now, but I am happy to say that as M3nt posted in the BladeSinger thread QC is working on making some other options available. I like Big J's statement that it isn't so much that arcane gish needs a buff, it's just that there is not a whole lot of room for variety unless you are very creative in your tactics.

[aaron22]

i guess i look at the gish like i would look at something unique or specific. how many viable archer builds are there? three... four? i said viable. there are quite a few specific builds like that with few possibilities. dirge? etc

[chad878262]

i guess i look at the gish like i would look at something unique or specific. how many viable archer builds are there? three... four? i said viable. there are quite a few specific builds like that with few possibilities. dirge? etc

OOBI makes a few more viable archer builds, but I would say there are more than 3 even without considering OOBI... Bards make solid Archers (with or without AA), as do Rangers, Fighter/Assassins/AA or Fighter, Rogue, Ranger with Elemental Archer, You can even make a decent Archer out of a gish type build such as Bard/Eldritch Knight/Dragon Slayer. Point being that there are a myriad of different level setups and builds you can use to make an archer that is survivable. However, like most builds it will have weaknesses, in most cases for Archer the weakness will either be AB/damage or close range survivability. Much like a caster positioning is key.

In any case, the point is there are choices you can make, but there are fewer with arcane gish. However, I think the real issue is what folks are USED TO... It used to be, before the dispel fix that folks would use Fighter 4 or 8, Paladin or other classes mixed in for their gish builds because they were really only trying to get their CL around 25, but even a bit lower was fine. The fix (and it is a bug fix, not a nerf in this case!) took away some of that freedom because the CL was a bit too low to be in the comfort zone of most. I don't think necessarily it is an issue with the power of Arcane Gish builds in general, so much as the feeling (right or wrong) that only certain gish builds can be made because anything else brings down their viability...

[Calodan]

yes, 21 or better gets 5 APR... It is very difficult to make a viable arcane gish without some levels in eldritch knight since it is the only high BAB class that also get 9/10 CL progression.

took levels of EK lost two CL's but gained the 5 BAB to make 5 attacks.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?261017

Much better could be viable in most areas. The Crit immune is what really drives that build with a melee touch hand attack as well from PM. WIth the right weaponry it could do fairly well and the RP would be great! Here is what I have been toying around with myself.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?260950

You mean something like this?

http://nwn2db.com/build/?232031

I had just found that build on the NWN2 data base site when the dispel fix went in. You can see though the idea behind it and the style. Kind of a pirate style in my mind.

these builds seem to be pretty tough. i am not feeling a large power gap. i hate comparing builds to FvS's. there are just some builds that are going to be above others. always will. the PBers are too good at finding optimizes.

i could also see a foresee a build that utilizes swashy to gain some damage at the expense of some CL's and forgoing the auto stills to open more epic feats. ie EP/EW. they would just be a totally different flavor of the same ice cream.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Wasn't the plan to buff everything else to be in line with FS?

[chad878262]

You mean something like this?

http://nwn2db.com/build/?232031

CL22 is pretty rough even with HiPS? Also, realize that on BG Swashbuckler doesn't get Insightful Strike until level 5 so you would need to lose two more levels to actually get the benefit of IS/CI goodness. If you want to mix in assassin you are better off using the build that mixes W/AK/A/AT which get's 21BAB, 25CL and HiPS. It doesn't get Insightful Strike, but gets a couple more sneak attack dice. That's what I am playing with my Drow right now.

If you wanted to use SB your best bet would be W12/EK10/SB5/SD3. BAB 23, CL25 with HiPS and insightful strike, but no Sneak Attack damage...