Poll: XP Modification

[Glowfire]

For the time being Maecius and I decided to make a small adjustment to RP exp (previously was 20 + 1dCharacterLevel, now is 40 + 1dCharacterLevel). We'll see how this effects character progression in general before implementing any further changes.

Interesting. I think increasing RP xp is a good move.

Is the cap still the same though? 2500-something?

[Rask]

Exp for killing monsters will be reduced to normal amounts again after reset. Now that I understand how the delivery system works it will be possible for QC to look at the overall exp rate (and the exp rate at specific level ranges) and discuss whether changes are needed and the best ones to make.

For the time being Maecius and I decided to make a small adjustment to RP exp (previously was 20 + 1dCharacterLevel, now is 40 + 1dCharacterLevel). We'll see how this effects character progression in general before implementing any further changes.

sad. That exp boost was really nice in these later levels. Once I got 20 ill probably just take a break and wait for the new changes and hope there's an I crease. 19-20 is already painfully slow for my character.

[K'yon Oblodra]

The threshold would be interesting to know

For the time being Maecius and I decided to make a small adjustment to RP exp (previously was 20 + 1dCharacterLevel, now is 40 + 1dCharacterLevel). We'll see how this effects character progression in general before implementing any further changes.

Interesting. I think increasing RP xp is a good move.

Is the cap still the same though? 2500-something?

[Sun Wukong]

I concur, the experience boost was nice... even though I only had time to go check one area because it was the only one I had some idea what it gave before.

[Akroma666]

Maybe my problem was Epics.. they still need some love. i think the EXP pool with the 20% boost would be helpful and appreciated.

[Rask]

Maybe my problem was Epics.. they still need some love. i think the EXP pool with the 20% boost would be helpful and appreciated.

Epics need a lot more than 20%, more like 50-75% minimum. It takes the same amount of XP to go from level 20-30 as it does to get to 1-20 and most mobs give 20 or less XP a kill, and even lower as you rise toward 30, where as before that, most mobs are giving you roughtly 32 XP a kill and you need less XP to advance per level. The leveling/advancement curve is wonky as hell. Before 20 it it's still a huge chore, but at least you feel like you're able to advance at a semi-reasonable pace. After 20 though its like banging your forehead into a wall.


Lets put it this way. After the XP increase last night, I grinded out 3/4ths of a level. It took me 3 hours to do that. That's at level 18, grinding in Xvarts for 3 hours straight. That's with a 50% XP increase. That's still a lot of time commitment for a single level, but it's not horridly unreasonable. It worked well. I think we should have a 50% increase for XP in mobs from level 19-21, and then should rise by 15-20% for each subsequent level after that. This would even out the XP curve quite a lot.

Combine this with an increase in RP XP gain, and also remove the stupid RP XP Cap, as the ticker is not nearly fast enough to warrant this cap (And why punish people for RPing for XP anyways? ) or make the cap like 10k XP. I realize people worry about botting, but i don't think it's going to be that big of a problem with this community.

[Calodan]

sad. That exp boost was really nice in these later levels. Once I got 20 ill probably just take a break and wait for the new changes and hope there's an I crease. 19-20 is already painfully slow for my character.

This is the case with most PCs here and those that try and get a PC up to levels usually lose interest and never learn to RP either because all the great RPers are vets with 30s. So we never see guilds truly grow and other things. The thing is you can not argue that mechanics have no effect on RP then slow mechanical leveling down that is pretty much saying that mechanics have effect or RP. The 20-30 run is stupid slow here and is soul stealing. While I assume as a player that something will be done we should temper our expectations as well. Nothing may be done about this at all. That would be sad considering so many people are saying to do something but it would be the servers choice. Will I leave? Probably not I have a level 30 that is fully invested in RP so will stay but what about the new people coming in each month that see a thread like this that has a good support from the players that gets no traction from the staff and nothing is done people will be put off and think that the server has no interest in expanding and bringing new blood in since the reaction of doing nothing would be saying that what the players want is not important. Now the staff and server are not doing this currently. In fact quite the opposite. I am just pointing out the possible outcome of not doing something and that we as players should also be prepared for them to not do a thing. In the end the Admin and the DMs will make a decision based on QC and our input so far and then we will know. Until then though the answer is to quest and group up for Yuan Ti because that is the grind spot for Epics.

[Maecius]

Glowfire, K'yon, I believe the cap for RP XP has been set to something like 7,000 XP per reset now. Most people will have a hard time reaching it unless they're doing a marathon RP session. This was adjusted so that players who prefer to focus on character interactions over adventuring can make more measurable progress over time.

Rask et al, I think Endelyon's "increase" was for a single evening while she was testing out how the system for adjusting XP payout works. For the time being, it will remain as it's always been -- the "normal" she refers to -- but it may have been a little higher than normal for a few hours last night.

Akroma, for an "XP pool" idea to work, we'd need someone willing and able to script it. I'm not sure there's anyone raising their hand for that project right this second though? I'd not be opposed to at least exploring the option if someone is wanting to code it.

In general, though, my philosophy is that people are going to value things more if they have to work to achieve them. If being level 30 is the priority a player has when playing this server, it's going to cost in time and effort. If being a titled character that everyone knows about is the priority of a player when playing this server, it is going to take a while and will inevitably require a lot of RP on a single character to get that level of server-wide prestige or global infamy. If running a guild is the priority a player has when playing this server, they're going to find it eats up a lot of hours and takes a lot of work to make it successful.

None of these goals depend on each other. It's really a matter of where the player's placing their priorities. All of my characters have been poor because I prioritized political and guild-focused RP over loot hunting. I could have had rich characters had I focused in the other direction.

In the end, goals are achieved if you stick to them. There definitely are level 30 characters on this server. And the reward is made more profound for the effort put in. I've only had two characters hit level 30 in my many years playing here. And both times it was a great feeling, I'll admit that. I even posted a bragging screenshot the first time I hit 30. But part of the reason it felt great is because it took like a year and cost hundreds of hours of dedication to a single character.

I'm not 100% set in stone on this position, but from a game design perspective, the reason people want to be level 30 is because it is an achievement -- with measurable payoff:

I'd just hate to see a medal of honor turned into a participation trophy.

[Calodan]

Glowfire, K'yon, I believe the cap for RP XP has been set to something like 7,000 XP per reset now. Most people will have a hard time reaching it unless they're doing a marathon RP session. This was adjusted so that players who prefer to focus on character interactions over adventuring can make more measurable progress over time.

Rask et al, I think Endelyon's "increase" was for a single evening while she was testing out how the system for adjusting XP payout works. For the time being, it will remain as it's always been -- the "normal" she refers to -- but it may have been a little higher than normal for a few hours last night.

Akroma, for an "XP pool" idea to work, we'd need someone willing and able to script it. I'm not sure there's anyone raising their hand for that project right this second though? I'd not be opposed to at least exploring the option if someone is wanting to code it.

In general, though, my philosophy is that people are going to value things more if they have to work to achieve them. If being level 30 is the priority a player has when playing this server, it's going to cost in time and effort. If being a titled character that everyone knows about is the priority of a player when playing this server, it is going to take a while and will inevitably require a lot of RP on a single character to get that level of server-wide prestige or global infamy. If running a guild is the priority a player has when playing this server, they're going to find it eats up a lot of hours and takes a lot of work to make it successful.

None of these goals depend on each other. It's really a matter of where the player's placing their priorities. All of my characters have been poor because I prioritized political and guild-focused RP over loot hunting. I could have had rich characters had I focused in the other direction.

In the end, goals are achieved if you stick to them. There definitely are level 30 characters on this server. And the reward is made more profound for the effort put in. I've only had two characters hit level 30 in my many years playing here. And both times it was a great feeling, I'll admit that. I even posted a bragging screenshot the first time I hit 30. But part of the reason it felt great is because it took like a year and cost hundreds of hours of dedication to a single character.

I'm not 100% set in stone on this position, but from a game design perspective, the reason people want to be level 30 is because it is an achievement -- with measurable payoff:

I'd just hate to see a medal of honor turned into a participation trophy.

I am all for not giving more XP where it was not given ever. I agree with that Mac. What I do not agree with is the force XP with questing. It is just not practical on this server for too many people. If I knew how to script I would do it. If someone is willing to teach me or point me to teaching tools I will learn to do it exclusively at first to get the XP pool in. Then from there I would decide if it is something I want to continue doing for BG at that point. I would do it and will do it if I can learn from someone.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I really just don't like the optimization balance of XP for fighting spawns. Basically if you look at it from about level 10 to 17ish the fastest place to grind on the surface is xvarts. 7 levels is a lot of xvarts. You can go elsewhere and get better xp per a kill but the enemies are tougher or fewer in number or both. If you don't have evasion well hill giants are out of the question. Wyvarns drain your con too easily to be grinded by most. Very few people fight ogres, or the ice cave. Hell when was the last time someone went to that troll cave just before the serpent hills? No I am not talking about the troll hills but the cave near the hobgoblins? Why would you? It is tough, there is little loot. You would likely be alone and not run into anyone.

The UD has the same issue with duergars. Side has a fantastic quote from passiflora that goes

AS A DROW you will kill DUERGARS for like..... lvl 9 to 25. A DAMN LOT OF DUERGARS.

and it is true. They are just an even more grindy version of xvarts. I want to see more options. When I ask someone IC where they want to go they are usually going to think to themselves either the best place for xp or the best place for loot. Why cant we have variation? Maybe not adjust xp per kill but increase number of spawns, boss mob spawn rate, etc?

I found it funny that 2 years ago give or take I was talking to some people about how the wyrmlings in the naga ruins were veritable xp piñatas. A few weeks later the spawns were changed to give reduced xp and worse loot. This made grinding the epic levels slower. Maybe only, and yes this is an arbitrary stand in number, 10% slower but it adds up when you are talking about hundreds of hours.

TLDR maybe the easiest thing to do is have QC take a bit of time and examine the least used dungeons and make suggestions on how to make them on par with places like xvarts and duergars.

/rant

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Akroma, for an "XP pool" idea to work, we'd need someone willing and able to script it. I'm not sure there's anyone raising their hand for that project right this second though? I'd not be opposed to at least exploring the option if someone is wanting to code it.

I'll toss my hat in if the direction on it is very specific and agreed upon.

[Rask]

I think some misunderstood me. When I said "taking a break" I was referring to the grind. That being said, some good points were made.

[Rask]

sad. That exp boost was really nice in these later levels. Once I got 20 ill probably just take a break and wait for the new changes and hope there's an I crease. 19-20 is already painfully slow for my character.

This is the case with most PCs here and those that try and get a PC up to levels usually lose interest and never learn to RP either because all the great RPers are vets with 30s. So we never see guilds truly grow and other things. The thing is you can not argue that mechanics have no effect on RP then slow mechanical leveling down that is pretty much saying that mechanics have effect or RP. The 20-30 run is stupid slow here and is soul stealing. While I assume as a player that something will be done we should temper our expectations as well. Nothing may be done about this at all. That would be sad considering so many people are saying to do something but it would be the servers choice. Will I leave? Probably not I have a level 30 that is fully invested in RP so will stay but what about the new people coming in each month that see a thread like this that has a good support from the players that gets no traction from the staff and nothing is done people will be put off and think that the server has no interest in expanding and bringing new blood in since the reaction of doing nothing would be saying that what the players want is not important. Now the staff and server are not doing this currently. In fact quite the opposite. I am just pointing out the possible outcome of not doing something and that we as players should also be prepared for them to not do a thing. In the end the Admin and the DMs will make a decision based on QC and our input so far and then we will know. Until then though the answer is to quest and group up for Yuan Ti because that is the grind spot for Epics.

I agree 100% with what you said. I appreciate where Maec is coming from on this. But if you look at this poll, and the last one, it add's up to something like 70 people voted in favour of an XP increase between the "raise across the board" and "raise for epic levels" It would look bad if nothing came of it. Raising XP in areas takes almost no effort (as we found out the other night.) and it seems to have been almost universally praised by the player base.

[Endelyon]

I agree 100% with what you said. I appreciate where Maec is coming from on this. But if you look at this poll, and the last one, it add's up to something like 70 people voted in favour of an XP increase between the "raise across the board" and "raise for epic levels" It would look bad if nothing came of it. Raising XP in areas takes almost no effort (as we found out the other night.) and it seems to have been almost universally praised by the player base.

"Almost no effort" is a bit of a misnomer since I spent probably close to 5 hours last night working out how the delivery system functions, doing script updates and recompiles and then observing the adjusted effects in game (on top of whatever time I spent on data collection from the forum and player messages afterwards).

We're taking user suggestion into consideration but we ultimately don't design the game by popular demand. We're weighing our options currently and there may be a change or there may not, but some of the arguments presented here are a bit of a logical fallacy in my eyes, as I'm sure that 70 people would also vote in favor of me handing out +5 4d10 magic damage weapons to them and universally praise me for doing it--that doesn't mean it's good for the game as a whole.

I realize it's an extreme example as the game balance will certainly be less drastically altered by a mild or moderate boost to kill exp but the point here is that we have to carefully weigh these things before any final decisions are made, because if the game becomes too easy there's likely not going to be many players starting polls to suggest it be made harder--they'll just get bored and play something else instead.

A test was done of a brute force method to force exp a consistent adjustment at all level ranges whether that adjustment was appropriate for those level ranges or not. Testing needs to be done, internal discussion needs to be had, the development process needs to be adhered to. We can't just toss a totally random change into the system and then assume it's good because it didn't seem to show any problems between the course of one reset to another.

[Calodan]

I agree 100% with what you said. I appreciate where Maec is coming from on this. But if you look at this poll, and the last one, it add's up to something like 70 people voted in favour of an XP increase between the "raise across the board" and "raise for epic levels" It would look bad if nothing came of it. Raising XP in areas takes almost no effort (as we found out the other night.) and it seems to have been almost universally praised by the player base.

"Almost no effort" is a bit of a misnomer since I spent probably close to 5 hours last night working out how the delivery system functions, doing script updates and recompiles and then observing the adjusted effects in game (on top of whatever time I spent on data collection from the forum and player messages afterwards).

We're taking user suggestion into consideration but we ultimately don't design the game by popular demand. We're weighing our options currently and there may be a change or there may not, but some of the arguments presented here are a bit of a logical fallacy in my eyes, as I'm sure that 70 people would also vote in favor of me handing out +5 4d10 magic damage weapons to them and universally praise me for doing it--that doesn't mean it's good for the game as a whole.

I realize it's an extreme example as the game balance will certainly be less drastically altered by a mild or moderate boost to kill exp but the point here is that we have to carefully weigh these things before any final decisions are made, because if the game becomes too easy there's likely not going to be many players starting polls to suggest it be made harder--they'll just get bored and play something else instead.

A test was done of a brute force method to force exp a consistent adjustment at all level ranges whether that adjustment was appropriate for those level ranges or not. Testing needs to be done, internal discussion needs to be had, the development process needs to be adhered to. We can't just toss a totally random change into the system and then assume it's good because it didn't seem to show any problems between the course of one reset to another.

That is why I also agree with Endelyon's point as well. As a person who has done weekly quests for the approximate XP it awards each week I can that is the missing XP that so many on this thread want. I would say the best answer is to give that XP to people in the form of an XP pool instead that they can spend doing what they wish. That would be the best thing this server could do and I fully understand that things like that would take time and then again someone to script it. I wish so badly I knew how to do it so I could get to working on it.