10 level PRCs with their own spellbooks - caster levels

[mrm3ntalist]

True, this BGTSCC, people disagree on many things.

True. In this case there one specific thing we disagree on. You want undispellable umd ( contrary to the direction the server took with the dispel fix ), i dont think its a good idea to have undispellable umd.

I love ya M3nt, but you still apply OOC knowledge and Player intelligence to everything. And I, for one, maybe there are others, would like to see the Server Content through Character eyes, and not Player eyes.

How can one not apply ooc knowledge after knowing all the areas? There is so much you can pretent you dont know. I dont know where you draw the line.

For example, cant you pretent that your character does not know he is going to be dispelled as well?

[Steve]

How can one not apply ooc knowledge after knowing all the areas? There is so much you can pretent you dont know. I dont know where you draw the line.

For example, cant you pretent that your character does not know he is going to be dispelled as well?

Well, in my case, I've left many areas of the Server completely unexplored, completely unknown, both IC and OOC. Add to that that new Areas are added, though infrequently, and that I do not make an OOC attempt to "see the new new" as soon as it comes online, I am fully capable of actually NOT applying OOC to my role-play.

I've not seen:
White Dragon (or his surrounding areas)
I couldn't tell you what the Frost Giants areas looks like (I think it has been 3 years since I was there)
I have no idea what the lower levels of the Yaun-ti area look like
I have no remembrance of what the Fire Giants area looks like (last time I was there was as Novus with the Whistling Wanderess crew Events)
I've not been inside Dragonspear
Nor at Avernus (and you know how I feel about that, so probably never will get there....)
I've not yet made it to Greenest (which is an unfulfilled quests to do with Chad's PC some day)
Not seen the new Durlags
Not seen Ulcasters
Serpent Hills...what goes on there?!?
Hell...I can't even complete this list because I don't even know if I know of all the areas that exist OOC!

But that is me, I do realize: I need RP reasons to be active on BGTSCC. I don't just do things to experience them, just cause. So in actuality, I don't have to pretend at all!!!

Now, I can and do "pretend" that my Character doesn't know he is going to be dispelled. Except for the fact that he has been dispelled! So, he seeks to gain the most powerful of consumables possible.

But an OOC limit exists to what is "most powerful." It isn't like there is an IC reason for the limitations, that he/she could discover, and thus end his personal quest. Right?

Anyway, you know what I'm asking to be considered by Staff—I've written it many times. It is a pity that no answers ever come—as you know, even a negative answer is better than no answers/reactions!!

EDIT: I realized soon after, that my above statement seen in the context of this thread, one could easily dismiss my comments by saying: "if your RP doesn't take you that far, then why are you commenting about mechanics...since those mechanics are outside of your RP." And it is a decent dismissal, because there is something that I forget to (re)mention: a fair part of why my Characters do not visit these areas is because they are—or at least should be—elicit a high level of danger, and...would a Character with any ounce of self-preservation, actually place themselves at risk, unless there was a X level of chance they would succeed? Obviously, X can only be defined by the Character: a crazed frezerker might have a death wish, and such, no danger is too great.

But every time a Character of mine does die, it seems altogether OOC to get back up and try again, especially if Death on BGTSCC is something our Characters don't remember. Even if they did remember, to actually remember getting your arse handed to you by a Frost Giant...would a Character really go back there? What would be the conditions that manifest or be manifested to such a degree that a Character would no longer assume Death awaits them...and then, gamble that Death any way?

So the point I'm trying to make is that the mechanics of certain things—like 10 level caster PrCs stuck at CL 14, or consumables like scrolls stuck at CL 15—do actually make the possible in IC RP, impossible without OOC understanding and acceptance (possibly grudgingly, but acceptance nonetheless).

We are all here on BGTSCC in order to pretend, but it is one thing where we, ourselves, draw a limit to our "game," and another when others—or rational—draws a limit for us.

[mrm3ntalist]

So the point I'm trying to make is that the mechanics of certain things—like 10 level caster PrCs stuck at CL 14, or consumables like scrolls stuck at CL 15—do actually make the possible in IC RP, impossible without OOC understanding and acceptance (possibly grudgingly, but acceptance nonetheless).

About points:
No1. You were the one that mixed RP and how one decides to approach this game, with mechanics which are 100% OOC.

No2. I will be honest, what you mentioned in the quote above, is slightly annoying, for two reasons.
a. There is no logic in wanting the 10CL assassin to have undispelable buffs while a 15CL caster ( wizard/sorcerer/druid/ranger etc ) will be dispeled normally.

b. This is a bit of a history trip that i mentioned before, in some other thread. Contrary to the suggestions of some of the QCers, you as a head dm, pushed for the dispel fix. You pushed, even though the points you argue about now were made clear to you. UMD will be dispelled, Prcs like assassins will be dispelled. Yet you pushed for it. However, no matter how many of the staff argued for or against the dispel fix, everyone got together and worked towards a direction that you pushed. That means countless hours that the devs spent implementing the changes and bug fixes, countless hours of testing, of staging updates etc. Even till couple of months ago, we were still fixing spell durations that were not taking the new caster level correctly. Then because umd and the 10lvl PRCs got hit hard, we balanced it by reducing the dispels on every area. That meant going in game, finding all mobs that were casting dispels, take SSs and post them on the forums so that the area designers can change ALL mobs in EVERY area. The amount of work that was needed for all the above was insane and was done mostly by Rasael and tfunke ( and now Valefort ) while duster ( and now endelyon ) had to bake the module every now and then in order for the changes to be implemented.

So after a year and some change, after we got where you wanted us to be with the dispel fix, after all this wrok and rebalance, you come here and ask for undispelable umd and 10lvl PRCs... You now want us to go back to the point where we were before the dispel fix that you pushed for.

No steve. You were aware of what would happen with the dispel fix. We made it happen so that it works the way you wanted. Not only that, but after you left the dm team, we even reduced the dispels so that umd is still relevant. So coming here, and arguing in the forums to undo all this work aint going to happen.

I know that by keep arguing on this topic will essentially help your point, because lately if you complain a lot in the forums, you get what you want. However, we are at a good place now, a place that in a way you helped us to be. We will build on this without undoing all the work that was done in the past. Like we were doing all this time by reducing dispels and implementing elixirs.

[Sun Wukong]

You want undispellable umd ( contrary to the direction the server took with the dispel fix ), i dont think its a good idea to have undispellable umd.

False, and as many times as it takes, what I want is UMD skill that serves a purpose beyond just unlocking items with alignment/class/race restrictions. Reducing the cost of UMD consumables does not make UMD undispellable. Yes, you could spend several turns buffing yourself to high heaven, and then proceed to be stripped from those buffs with a single dispel from the first caster mob you encounter. And sure, you could repeat this cycle again and again... UMD would act as a crutch.

Its not quantum pgysics. Its NWN2. Does it take much to realise that you can use UMD against the dragon in the Serpent Hills without fear of dispells? Or against the Queen? Or you can clear the whole frost keep and only get dispelled from FK. The troll claws.

Can you tell me why anyone beyond 'rogue archetypes' would need UMD to solo any of these areas?

[mrm3ntalist]

You want undispellable umd ( contrary to the direction the server took with the dispel fix ), i dont think its a good idea to have undispellable umd.

False, and as many times as it takes, what I want is UMD skill that serves a purpose beyond just unlocking items with alignment/class/race restrictions. Reducing the cost of UMD consumables does not make UMD undispellable. Yes, you could spend several turns buffing yourself to high heaven, and then proceed to be stripped from those buffs with a single dispel from the first caster mob you encounter. And sure, you could repeat this cycle again and again... UMD acts as crutch.

False, UMD is still relevant. You just dont use it by being a buff bot and expecting to not be dispelled.

Can you tell me why anyone beyond 'rogue archetypes' would need UMD to solo any of these areas?

To survive tough battles. Shield, IMA and mirrors are some of the umd i use daily on many of my builds ( some times even casters for back up ) to fight bosses. My ranger uses it, my rogue uses it, my pure monk uses it ( especially Gr. Heroism pots ), my bard uses it even my High DC casters use umd for mirrors and IMA in order to memorize more damaging spells.

Displacement is another spell that works wonders even if they have small duration while some premonition pots that i have found throughout the years, i keep them as treasure and are used in tough situations such as DM events or PvP.

Like i said, UMD is very useful and can be very efficient. You just dont use them like a mindless buff bot.

[Valefort]

Simian, Steve, roll the dices this is DnD. There's risk, you are silly control freaks and there's no reason to change this all to appease your dispelphobia (and yes, asking for super cheap UMD amounts to pretty much undispellable UMD, you're not fooling anyone).

[Sun Wukong]

False, UMD is still relevant. You just dont use it by being a buff bot and expecting to not be dispelled.

Over these pages the following wands have been mentioned as useful...

• Wand of Lesser Breach
• Wand of Invisibility Purge
• Wand of Spell Mantle
• Wand of Improved Mage Armor
• Wand of Mirror Image
• Wand of Shield
• Wand of Displacement (In my experience a rather common loot drop)

That is 7 out of the possible 157 wands you can craft in stock NWN2. The cost of creating elixirs is too expensive according to the only player I have seen try selling them. As for the use of scrolls, well, nothing more than dust balls passing by...

This is why I say that UMD as a whole is irrelevant. To me it is not salvaged by the fact that about seven wands still see some use under specific conditions.

To survive tough battles.

I suppose the notion of a tough battle is subjective.

(and yes, asking for super cheap UMD amounts to pretty much undispellable UMD, you're not fooling anyone)

And the current state of affairs has resulted in a situation where about 7 types of wands still serve some situational purpose. Is there anything else worth spending your coin on? Not really, so how about a price reduction to somewhere between this status quo and my super cheap UMD? (It was a tenth of current costs.)

[chad878262]

Other useful wands:
Barkskin or spider skin
Dimension door
Bulls strength
Bless
Aid
Protection from alignment
Heroism
Invisibility
Bless weapon
Claraudience and clairvoyance
Conviction or greater resistance
Cure serious/ critical wounds
Darkness
Death ward
Eagles splendor
Cats grace
Fox's cunning
Freedom of movement


Do I need to go on? Stat enhancing wands last 15 minutes, cure wands are great for low strength characters, the rest should be self explanatory.

[Valefort]

And there are also :

• flame weapon
• moon bolt
• restoration
• amplify
• ray of enfeeblement
• silence
• Enervation

The disabling spells are nothing to sneeze at against bosses, and silence wand does wonder against tough casters.

[Steve]

...you as a head dm, pushed for the dispel fix. You pushed, even though the points you argue about now were made clear to you. UMD will be dispelled, Prcs like assassins will be dispelled. Yet you pushed for it. However, no matter how many of the staff argued for or against the dispel fix, everyone got together and worked towards a direction that you pushed.

Right you are, M3nt. So what is the/your problem, exactly? The paradigm of the Server then—and isn't that how it is now?—is to fix bugs. So are you now complaining and irritated by me, because I was pushing for the previously existing-before-I-arrived-time,and, for what exists now?

Please correct me if I'm wrong by thinking the following, but your tone sounds like you want to blame me for something?

That means countless hours ...

So after a year and some change, after we got where you wanted us to be with the dispel fix, after all this wrok and rebalance, you come here and ask for undispelable umd and 10lvl PRCs... You now want us to go back to the point where we were before the dispel fix that you pushed for.

The above and what I underlined, proves you are not reading, and I can only assume your annoyance is clouding your eyes. I never said, nor ever will say, I want undispelable UMD, or, undispelable 10-lvl caster PCs. If you think this is what I’ve suggested, you are simply wrong, M3nt. Do you need me to repeat myself, what I am actually suggesting be changed? How can I make myself crystal clear to you?

No steve. You were aware of what would happen with the dispel fix. We made it happen so that it works the way you wanted.

Dude! It was working in bugged form! That you even bother assigning me some responsibility to how it should work my way, is totally off-base man. Where does this need to blame someone come from, M3nt?

Like I said to you before in a PM, fixing the Dispel Bug for CL was to also include a base level CL, for a balanced risk v. reward. As I promoted it then, and now, it was CL 25. The FULL fix for the Dispel Bug was to allow for UMD to have a 25% margin of failure, not the 0% margin, when the Bug was unfixed. The FULL fix was to also promote a Gold Sink through consumables (potions, scrolls). I myself have no problem with making these high CL consumables incredibly expensive. Just to be clear on that.

So coming here, and arguing in the forums to undo all this work aint going to happen.

Again, I am not nor would argue to undue the work that has been done. To write this is simply incorrect, M3nt.

I know that by keep arguing on this topic will essentially help your point, because lately if you complain a lot in the forums, you get what you want.

Is that so? Maybe you should look at the reason why issues are "argued" for so long. In my opinion, that is because: a) Staff never officially addresses THE issue at hand, b) changes are not well described nor documented, especially the why of it.

Every single time I make a request, I ask for an official answer. Even you, have taken this up and said to me "I'll take it to QC for an answer..." [paraphrasing you], and then I never get a response.

If you leave topics in limbo, then people with an interest in those topics, will continue to address them. I think this is something you should understand.

And also, I'd humbly ask of you to also understand that when, as the QC Coordinator and with a Staff role, when you "get upset" with people, even if this is on a personal-not-as-Staff commentary, it is very difficult on this digital medium to truly understand what your upsetness means to the Issue At Hand. Does M3nt's sarcasm, his subtle annoyance, essentially mean the Issue at Hand is not going to be considered?

I'm telling you straight up man, it would be far easier and more appropriate if, in your Staff Role, you'd simply say "The Staff do not want this feature/issue/idea implemented at this time. Thank you for bringing the idea to discussion, but for now, it is closed." Those that have brought the idea, might not like your answer above, at least it is concrete, and not some inter-personal-abstract-limbo answer, from a Staff person who just giving their opinion, though that opinion will also influence their Staff opinions (which simply how things work!).

However, we are at a good place now, a place that in a way you helped us to be. We will build on this without undoing all the work that was done in the past. Like we were doing all this time by reducing dispels and implementing elixirs.

I agree, the Server is in a good place. So, as you yourself have written, can we build upon the current good situation and consider an increase in CLs for 10-level Caster PrCs—through some sacrifice of power, like taking Spell Power Feats—or, increasing the CL of Scrolls to 25?

[Sun Wukong]

You forgot to mention Wands of Magic Missile, those cost 6750 to craft and allow you to spam caster level 9 magic missile. That would be 5*(1d4+1) = 17.5~ damage on average. I imagine it would work rather well on low levels if you have that buffed up summon to tank for you, especially if you can buy unlimited Bone Wands from High Hedge. (Can be crafted by a wizard at level 5.)


But the thing is, you only brought up those things because I pointed out that you hadn't done it previously. Well, I forgot to list Wand of Barkskin, but it gives you +4 Natural Armor and costs that 18000 goldpieces to craft. For about 10000 you can get a +3 Natural Armor amulet. Which makes the benefit of that dispellable +1 AC is rather debatable.


So, in total you have listed about 33~ wands out the possible 157~. That is about 21%, and well, each of them costs about tens of thousands of gold pieces a wand. In theory you can spend an infinite amount of time to acquire an infinite amount of gold which you can turn into an infinite amount of various wands. But our time remains is limited, which means that until your character hits level 30 and has all the best equipment, you are forced to make priority decisions. Which one of the 10-60k wands is going to give you most bang for your buck? That is why you only mentioned about seven wands prior to this moment. All the other wands are secondary if not tertiary in importance because the dispels and breaches ensure that you consume your primary wands faster than before - and if you rely on them - you have to be able to afford to replace them. It is the reason why our ‘Consignment Store Wand Salesmen’ only put up about the same set of wands every time. There does not seem to be much of a market for anything else.


Also, it would be nice if you could state some current uses for scrolls. Perhaps a blurred screenshot of anyone actually buying those expensive elixirs?


Edit: and let us not forget that a single spell is needed to create a single wand/scroll/potion. Scrolls and potions are one use only - and therefore the resting limitions limit how many can be crafted. You basically have to order those things in advance, and possibly wait for days if not weeks for delivery.

[dedude]

IMO UMD is in a good place. It is definitely a contender for the strongest skill in the game, depending on build of course. Risk of being dispelled is part of the game world we live in. Expect it to happen from time to time, and plan accordingly. And this is all possible to do IC. With points in spellcraft, or advice from someone with it, your character can know that some wands/potions/spells/etc are stronger than others. You can also learn that some of the undead in a specific crypt are casters, and they might cast dispels.

Unrelated to UMD is the balancing of the crafting costs of wands vs potions vs scrolls. I would say the wands are generally at a good price point, but scrolls could probably use a looking at, maybe potions as well.

[Valefort]

Potions are indeed probably a bit too expensive while scrolls are in an odd spot. Their prices in magic shops are, imo, correct but crafting costs are higher.

[chad878262]

Potions are indeed probably a bit too expensive while scrolls are in an odd spot. Their prices in magic shops are, imo, correct but crafting costs are higher.

Yep. Make potions base 30gp, 25 w/ MA1, 20 w/ MA5. Make scrolls base cost 10gp. Problem solved. Scrolls will still be more expensive than in shops, but will certainly be more palatable (a level 9 spell will cost a minimum of 1,530 gp to scribe, but that is far less than the current cost of 3,825). Potions will still cost more than wands (for MA potions will cost about 25% more than wands while those w/out MA will cost double) and will still cost more than scrolls, which is accurate since they require no UMD.

stuff...

I did mention at the end of my post that I could mention more....Actually got a PM from a very skilled player listing some of the top tier wands I neglected to mention. However, my point was not to make a comprehensive list, but simply to indicate that while certain wands are more popular there are many wands that have uses in PvE, PvP, or DM events for players that chose to invest in them. Any caster wizard I play has a wand of grease, for instance. IMO it would be a poor decision not to have it since letting anyone get near you is asking for death, wands being instant cast makes them have some very interesting uses if you stop to think about the applications.

[Sun Wukong]

Potions are indeed probably a bit too expensive while scrolls are in an odd spot. Their prices in magic shops are, imo, correct but crafting costs are higher.

Yep. Make potions base 30gp, 25 w/ MA1, 20 w/ MA5. Make scrolls base cost 10gp. Problem solved. Scrolls will still be more expensive than in shops, but will certainly be more palatable (a level 9 spell will cost a minimum of 1,530 gp to scribe, but that is far less than the current cost of 3,825). Potions will still cost more than wands (for MA potions will cost about 25% more than wands while those w/out MA will cost double) and will still cost more than scrolls, which is accurate since they require no UMD.

Actually, as much as it might annoy, I could argue that the cost for potions and scrolls could be lowered slightly more still. After all, a single spell cast still creates just one potion or scroll, while a single spell cast creates a wand with 50 or so uses. The rest timer will make it so that getting your scrolls and wands can take hours, if not days to craft.

For example those caster level 30 Divine Power potions, a single potion lasts for 3 minutes. A stack of ten lasts for about 30 minutes - while regular adventuring can easily take hours.