Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2017)

[Steve]

It merely nerfs the barbarians who used a shield to get sky high AC, yes those ones will be better off going normal rage now. On a good old 2 hander barbarian i'll still pick whirlwind frenzy anytime.

Why not a 2-hander with far longer Rage duration?

[Valefort]

There's no comparison for a two hander, they lack AC and that's where whirlwind frenzy shines.

[Sun Wukong]

There's no comparison for a two hander, they lack AC and that's where whirlwind frenzy shines.

No, it does not. You can get the AC from a wand of shield if you must - and even currently my 'whirlwind frenzy' two-hander gets hit. Thus the extra regeneration would be more preferable, along with longer rage duration, and well, extra damage on top.

[Valefort]

Oh, UMD, I thought it was so bad you needed higher caster level consumables ...

Anyway what you're talking about seems like a building issue, with a changed whirlwind frenzy it is still possible to get very high AC while two handing and that's what that type of rage is made for.

10 (base) + 8 (MFP) + 3 (DEX) + 4*3 (dodge, deflection, enchant) + 8 (ice troll, natural) + 3 (tumble) + 5 (shield enchant from whirlwind) = 49 AC

Then you have the usual AC boosting feats, dervish is also a straightforward choice for two handers which means over 50 AC while two handing, which means being hit on 20 only most everywhere.

[Akroma666]

btw when are these changes going in and can we barbs expect a free refund ?

This^
Even I would want to change my rage. Not to mention i never got one for the original changes. Can someone comment if we get 100% RCR tokens?

[Steve]

There's no comparison for a two hander, they lack AC and that's where whirlwind frenzy shines.

They actually didn't lack AC cause they had it with the +5 to Dosge, thus "freeing" them from shield use in the first place.

Does losing +5 AC matter when you can get, from Standard, massive HP and massive saves, and far longer Raging? Don't forget that Ice Troll Natural AC also "turns off" when Rage is up.

[Theodore01]

I hope that DM's will be able to just switch the rage type on a char. - without the need to RCR.

[Sun Wukong]

Oh, UMD, I thought it was so bad you needed higher caster level consumables ...

Anyway what you're talking about seems like a building issue, with a changed whirlwind frenzy it is still possible to get very high AC while two handing and that's what that type of rage is made for.

10 (base) + 8 (MFP) + 3 (DEX) + 4*3 (dodge, deflection, enchant) + 8 (ice troll, natural) + 3 (tumble) + 5 (shield enchant from whirlwind) = 49 AC

Then you have the usual AC boosting feats, dervish is also a straightforward choice for two handers which means over 50 AC while two handing, which means being hit on 20 only most everywhere.

Currently, my 'shield abusing' two-hander gets 50 AC with a shield, and that is with Epic Whirlwind Frenzy. I got bunch of +3 equipment, so currently I can look at 54 AC with all +4 equipment? Oh, and I just got reduced to shreds by bunch of Frost Giants. Didn't even get inside their castle.

And yes, Valefort, it is a 'building issue'. I do not want to play Dervish, as I do not want to rely on UMD, it is as simple as that. This change will not create more character options, it will just reduce them.

I hope that DM's will be able to just switch the rage type on a char. - without the need to RCR.

They should be, it is just an issue of adding and removing a feat to be honest. Some of them got experience with that just a few months back when rage was bugged entirely and you couldn't create a new Barbarian and choose rage variant.

[Valefort]

We're speaking of +5 rounds when you're at epic rage, how is that "far longer raging" ? That's one extend rage feat, one.

Massive saves boost ? You'll get +5 fort and +5 will while the whirlwind frenzy gives you +5 reflex. Now tell me, which of these 3 saves is the lowest for any barbarian with steadfast determination ... ? Reflex.

So it's true you'll get a bonus to those saves and good thing for you, they were sky high already, feel free to get that cherry on top but please stop making it out to be the Graal and the thing to get when in Rage while it's not even a problem to begin with.

And 50 AC destroyed by frost giants ? The melee ones hardly have the AB to hit you except on a 20.

[dzidek1983]

Hahahahahah... i mean... hahahahahaha

[chad878262]

anyone else find it amusing that not long ago there was a whole thread about how a Whirlwind Frenzy Barbarian could exceed 70 AC and now we are talking about the difficulties of exceeding 50? (By the way, first world problem is when you 'only' get to 54 AC while also being a great damage dealer with solid saving throws and DR)...

[Calodan]

There's no comparison for a two hander, they lack AC and that's where whirlwind frenzy shines.

They actually didn't lack AC cause they had it with the +5 to Dosge, thus "freeing" them from shield use in the first place.

Does losing +5 AC matter when you can get, from Standard, massive HP and massive saves, and far longer Raging? Don't forget that Ice Troll Natural AC also "turns off" when Rage is up.

Ice Troll is useless when raging? Then why even take it? What would be the point since you are going to rage through most dungeons where you need the AC........

[aaron22]

i have to agree with vale on this one. the new perks are not "All that". there are going to be builds that would benefit from standard and some that will benefit from WW. its not this hard.

[Steve]

Okay. It just looks like there were 1–2 builds that got considered to be OP, and then changes were made.

[Akroma666]

Self proclaimed Bear Warrior expert here, we clock in at about 52-54 AC. No complaints