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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:40 am
by Atlas
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Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:50 am
by Tsidkenu
Atlas brings up a good point there. Detect Evil should be a narrative tool when interacting with NPCs & the DMs controlling them. But in the BGTSCC setting if Detect Evil is a legitimate thing 'on the character's sheet', who's to say it cannot be used on another PC? This makes it a difficulty, even if I would like to see Atlas' vision of it on the server for the same nostalgic sake.
I still feel the best solution, if it were to be added, is adding its natural counter: Undetectable Alignment. This way neither side can complain and it is up to each player to use the tools made available to them.
Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:15 am
by Nyeleni
Atlas wrote:SNIP
The middle ground for this is called the neutral alignments. They are for the meek or the undecided who either lack the conviction to make personal sacrifices for higher goals, whether good or evil, or for those who just have no idea what they even want. And even these people recognize the tangible quality and danger of evil in the setting and the threat it represents to them and all they care for.
SNIP
You are wrong. Neutral isn't for the meek and undecided. It is for the enlightened who see the world for what it is. Which is not black and white as so many want us make believe. And yes, as you did it, I am mixing RL and fantasy.
The more you simplify matters the narrower your view will be on the world.
Self sacrifice isn't something inherent on the good spectrum btw. Even an evil person might sacrifice his or her life to push the agenda of a god or a plan forward. I admit, it might happen less often.
Anyways and I will tell it again: the alignment system does not make much sense.
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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:37 am
by Atlas
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Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:58 am
by cosmic ray
Darradarljod wrote:Torminator
But isn't that what paladins do? *scratches head*
Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:27 am
by Nyeleni
Atlas wrote:The basic premise of the social construct we know as justice is that in a world of finite resources someone will always win and someone will always lose. Justice was invented as a tool of Human society to try and steer the community in the direction that the rightful person wins and the wrongful person loses.
As for those who choose no side. All they have ever accomplished is to ensure that the wrongful are allowed to elude justice.
SNIP
The neutrals do choose a side. Maybe it is the hardest path as it isn't just following the mantra of what is "good". It means you have to think and decide by yourself.
Who decides what is wrongful and what is right? All these concepts are void of meaning. As are the words good, bad, evil, etc.
Only by using custom, traditions e.g. are we able to say what is good and right and the opposite. But these are constructs of the societies. What is good in one community might be bad in another. And that is why the alignment system does not make any sense.
It might be that you are alluding as a strong example to the silence of not only the german people during the Nazi regime (the french, dutch, belgian, spanish, portuguese, austrian, czechs, hungarians, etc did the same during the same time period, helping them cart the undesired away). They weren't "neutral" at all. They were complices of the new law and mass murders.
In any case, I think we are just arguing about different definitions of what "neutral" means. You see it as something weak, I myself see it as the difficult path to knowledge.
Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:51 am
by Kanada
I think past eras of this server where paladins were more common show that the players here can't handle a power like this. You want metagaming, or at least the perception of it, to ruin this server? This is a great step in that direction. This would also turn every zone in the game into a potential bloodbath.
Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:17 pm
by vexedart
"Oh look a sandwich,"
-detects evil- "FIEND!"
-smites sandwich-
Replace sandwich with any other word. There you go, that's what 90% of what paladins will be doing, or metagaming any other reason to do so, this is also my tabletop experience of 15 years with most players who roll a paladin(there are fantastic exceptions and I love them when I see them, but it is RARE). Also, a lot of people don't even read the server rules, let alone a paladins sworn oaths. So prepare for many, many messy encounters with this ability being ab/used.
Investing skill points in sense motive is probably the closest you will get in interpreting what the others players intentions are. It would be a 'hunch' but it kind of meets what you're asking for half way.
RANT/Opinion/Experience: How many paladins strike down something and kill it on the spot, using it's own justification, instead of their sworn oaths, this is lawful neutral at best, not lawful good. This is judge dread mentality, where you are judge, jury, and executioner.
Alternatives would be knocking them unconscious, drag them to town to be judged, branding them for their crimes, taking an arm or finger/s for thieving. Most paladins don't RP their sworn oaths, which is a shame. Many DM's in tabletop even, I've seen, use paladins as a ''for the greater good, the ends justify the means mentality." Mob of murderous purifiers more or less... Instead of actually playing lawful good and upholding their oaths. It breaks the lore, Detect Evil would enforce more lore breaking and metagaming I would think, from years of seeing it done that way by the majority of all paladin players.
It's not about justifying murder, it's about redemption. To purify their twisted soul into something good, make them see the light, to lead people to do good and not evil, to give instead of take. To lead by example. Do as I do, not as I say, instead of, do what I say, not as I do.
(Aka most paladins on the server are lawful neutral/evil, doing it their way for the 'greater good,' Instead of championing their oath. this makes for great villains though, but do these paladins ever have to redeem themselves for their oath breaking, do they just RCR? Do they RP the perfect Mary Sue who never oath breaks?)
An ability like this on BGTSCC, you might as well pvp toggle half of the server, and skip the consent rules. (which would be nice if the UpD was ruled that way, but too many people are afraid of character conflict even though it enriches stories, conflict does really, try it)
Literally grinding mobs that are sentient, and murdering them in their own homeland, isn't necessarily lawful good at all, but this is a low RP server, you can call it middle if you want, label it high even, just what I've seen, don't shoot the messenger.
It's difficult to RP a paladin, you can't take your own wants and needs over that of what you're sworn to uphold and protect, or you lose your abilities. That includes the law, that includes giving evil a chance for redemption, that includes giving to others that have nothing left, and protecting the innocent from nefarious intentions. There are sacrifices of self which I hardly see any paladins doing. Just fighters blessed by gods more or less is what I've seen.
What you guys should really be fighting for is that sweet steed. Where's your war pony!
Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:54 pm
by Brother Bruce
eventually when people come to know each other and a new face comes around, a paladin will use his detect evil with the unfamiliar person around. "oh? what's this? a blip on my evil detection radar? well it cant be any of these other people I checked, so it's that guy in the dusty half-plate. HEY EVERYONE, THAT GUY'S MORALLY QUESTIONABLE!" *gasps from a crowd nearby*
but wait, now they sell alignment masking potions. what could be the problem? cut to: "I saw him drink a potion earlier! you had best consent to my checking of your alignment with your spells stripped. refusal would mean that you're clearly.... MORALLY QUESTIONABLE!" *gasps from the nearby crowd*
*person in black armor walks by* "MORALLY QUESTIONABLE!... yet very fashionable" *gasps from crowd followed by a collective nod in agreement*
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:10 pm
by Atlas
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Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:36 pm
by Nyeleni
Of course, nobody wants to be evil. That was never the debate. Not even drow would say they are evil. Their way of life is good and right for them.
Why? Because it works that way for them. But in FR we have to simplify to have a working game system. Thus: drow are evil.
It is my last response, as I don't think I can explain it any better: There were once two tribes or nations at the Hindu Kush. One prayed to one god the other to another. Both people however believed both existed. But for one tribe one god represented life, fertility etc. what we could call "good" and the other god of the other nation was evil, it represented death, destruction, etc.
The own god represented the good version of course while the other was vilified. But both gods were good and evil at once.
Moral is another word void of meaning. It only gets filled by custom, traditions and laws of the society. It decides what moral is. And it certainly isn't a universal paradigm.
I could write about Mesopotamia, where the cities were walled against other tribes (the human is the worst predator) or I could tell you that for many greeks Tiranny was the highest of the governmental form, not Democracy and it was "good" for the population.
Also cities were built when the ressources started to dwindle due to the growing of the population and desertification of the fertile land. Agriculture was taxing the land. That is when people came together to help each other and they invented the irrigation channel for instance.
In conclusion:
I think your morale code (a product of our modern time) is colouring your perception, projecting it into ancient times.
Coming back to the topic: I agree almost with everything you write about Paladins. Your expertise speaks for you. However I would not be too strict. It is a game after all. And we should all just have fun.
Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:44 pm
by Hoihe
Nyeleni wrote:Of course, nobody wants to be evil. That was never the debate. Not even drow would say they are evil. Their way of life is good and right for them.
Why? Because it works that way for them. But in FR we have to simplify to have a working game system. Thus: drow are evil.
It is my last response, as I don't think I can explain it any better: There were once two tribes or nations at the Hindu Kush. One prayed to one god the other to another. Both people however believed both existed. But for one tribe one god represented life, fertility etc. what we could call "good" and the other god of the other nation was evil, it represented death, destruction, etc.
The own god represented the good version of course while the other was vilified. But both gods were good and evil at once.
Moral is another word void of meaning. It only gets filled by custom, traditions and laws of the society. It decides what moral is. And it certainly isn't a universal paradigm.
I could write about Mesopotamia, where the cities were walled against other tribes (the human is the worst predator) or I could tell you that for many greeks Tiranny was the highest of the governmental form, not Democracy and it was "good" for the population.
Also cities were built when the ressources started to dwindle due to the growing of the population and desertification of the fertile land. Agriculture was taxing the land. That is when people came together to help each other and they invented the irrigation channel for instance.
In conclusion:
I think your morale code (a product of our modern time) is colouring your perception, projecting it into ancient times.
Coming back to the topic: I agree almost with everything you write about Paladins. Your expertise speaks for you. However I would not be too strict. It is a game after all. And we should all just have fun.
In Forgotten Realms, Law, Chaos, Good and Evil are as absolute as the law that mass attracts mass weaker and weaker over greater distances. There is no debating it.
Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:21 pm
by Tsidkenu
Please do not let this thread devolve into a discussion about real-world religion and politics, as it is now scraping that surface.
It is about Paladins in the Forgotten Realms setting and why/why not they should receive Detect Evil as a spell-like ability in our server's incarnation of that setting.
Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:00 pm
by Darradarljod
From a lot of the comments in this thread I perceive we aren't dealing within a high trust community on this issue. People are afraid to see features like "Detect Evil", or the wizard spells "Know Alignment" introduced in game. So after all being said so far, I have a proposition;
I'd like to know what our community thinks about this suggestion to go forward; assuming it were possible - both the Paladin supernatural ability "Detect Evil", and also Non-Detection options to counter it, were introduced. Furthermore, as a quality control, the base class of Paladin became an application only class.
Such a quality control process already applies to lore intensive classes such as Red Wizards and Thayan Knights and Shadow Adepts. The Paladin is also a class that requires some grasp of specific lore and understanding of unique features such as ethos. The only way it differs from the above listed classes, IMO, is that it is a base class and not a prestige class.
Such an application could not only cover the imperatives of ethos, et cetera, but also ask theoretical questions as to how the paladin might respond on Detecting Evil within certain circumstances. Furthermore, included in the application process, an emphasis of the rules concerning PvP which must be formally acknowledged to to qualify.
Would this be a fair compromise?
Re: DETECT EVIL - PALADINS
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:18 pm
by metaquad4
Here is an issue with that:
*Disclaimer: I know some people don't do this, but this is very easy to do if you are capable of googling properly and/or have access to sourcebooks (which can be googled for!).*
Applications are very easy to write (copy source book material, write something you know the DMs are looking for), and it is harder to verify that a player is RPing what they are writing in their application. For that, you'd need a DM to watch them and make sure they are RPing in accordance with their application. Even if a DM watched these players during events, it would be a strain on them to know each player's app and know when the players show up for events. They simply don't have time for that.
Something that could be done is say that you must actively participate in 5-10 events and prove that you are capable of handling the RP by actively RPing what you want in your application before you can take the class. In addition, have several players accounts and screenshots as well as your own screenshots to back up your RP into the class you are applying for.
Obviously for a base class, this is pretty hard to do. You'd need to either RCR into a different class, or not only take paladin.
Plus, you have to also take into account that there are a fair number of people who are already paladins. You need to deal with them as well (some may not desire to write apps, some may be deemed unacceptable by who is looking it over at the time [even if it fits in lore, DM decisions are not always represented in lore as BGTSCC has its own in-house lore that is not always clear until a decision is made], etc.) in a fair manner.