Focused Discussion: Crafting

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Do you want crafting in BGTSCC?

Yes
79
86%
No
13
14%
 
Total votes: 92

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NeonAvenger
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by NeonAvenger »

Hmm... this was going to be a couple of brief notes but it got out of hand. I've tried to arrange things in a relatively coherent fashion but I have my doubts... I'll just throw it at the forums and see what sticks.

tl;dr version:
  • Crafters should need recipes in their inventory so that they're not all the same.
  • I like consumables.
  • Basic crafting should allow crafters to trade bonuses for penalties.
  • I like the idea of charges on enchanted items.
Things I would like to see.

In general:
While a "Gather > Refine > Craft" system would be nice I don't think DnDs limited skill system really supports it. In almost every case the skill that would be used to gather the resource is also the skill that would be used to refine it making the distinction between gathering and refining pointless (except perhaps to limit the ability of harvesters to carry large loads?).
More specialised materials would of course require a higher DC check to collect.
Some of the gathered materials could even be useful in their own right e.g. a half dozen healing herbs could be used by an alchemist to produce a more powerful healing potion.

Given the raw materials a crafter would produce an item at a specialised station of some kind; possibly requiring a recipe in their inventory for the given item to represent necessary training or tools that they have acquired which would allow various crafters to differentiate themselves.
Maybe different crafting stations could offer bonuses (e.g. the publicly available stations would be of the lowest quality, guilds would be able to expend vast quantities of space and money to get facilities that provide a bonus? or permit certain more complex recipes to be used?... I have no idea the limitations of the game engine here but I like the idea) to allow groups to be specialised in certain areas.
The crafter would of course have to expend a pile of gold (for materials apart from the specialised ones) and pass a suitable check to make the item (losing some or all of the materials on a failure, actually now that I think about it: I rather like the idea of fairly low DCs but poor rolls requiring more resources than a good one... not sure if that's manageable though).

Consumables:
I would love to see more consumables being produced, or even just available for sale.
The whole gamut of the base alchemy items (tanglefoot bags, acid flasks etc...) plus grease bombs, glue bombs, smoke bombs, poisons (and on a side note I'd love to see poisons made deadly, with Deathward preventing all statistic loss they're kinda pointless), myconid spore bombs, caltrops, oils of resistance, scrying stones, magic ropes (bypasses climbing check), weapon oils, whatever the sick minds of the server can come up with.

This would provide some variety to the basic combat classes and something of a stealth nerf to the caster classes by "open sourcing" some of their weaker spells.
The high-end consumables (e.g. the OAD&D oils of resistance) could also provide something of a gold sink.

Mundane Crafting:
In addition to the expected arms and armour I think it would be good if crafters could produce placeable props, ammunition, healing kits, lockpicks and other mundane equipment.
Personally I have never liked flat "EB" weapons and armour, I've always thought it a bit silly for a wizard to have crafted "The swordiest sword that ever did sword".
If it were possible crafters could "juggle" the stats on the arms and armour they produce, trading bonuses in one area for penalties in another (e.g. your elvish swordsmith could produce a "rapier of extreme pointiness" with a large hit bonus but damage penalty) or special features e.g. bleeding or keen; all of which would increase the DC of the creation.
This would also alleviate the problem of "casters will just make weapons without any EB bonus and use GMW" since the basic bonuses wouldn't be added by enchantment.
Of course special materials would be possible but would be very difficult to obtain and might require another crafter to turn the raw materials of one kind into the base materials of another (e.g. taking a pile of mithral slivers and turning them into a mithral ingot).

Enchanting:
Instead of slots I favour the idea of horribly high DCs for enchanting with later enchantments increasing the DC further... not sure which skill would be used though: spellcraft? This would mean that a given enchanter would be able to safely add a certain number of bonuses to an item and then it would become risky to try any more, it would also mean that you could take your favourite sword and enchant it, and as your career continues and you have access to more funds you can add more abilities to it, or that you may have to "shop around" multiple enchanters to get the final item you want.
I do like the idea of enchantments requiring charges (although I feel exploding the item on a recharge might be a bit much) although some enchantments (e.g. light) should probably just be permanent and in some cases the abilities would need to be instantly activated ("Hold up! I need to find the matches so I can light my flaming sword").
I feel enchanting should also require materials, recipes, and knowledge of specific spells to again differentiate different crafters and to somewhat limit the power of money.

Caveats:
I have no idea of the limitations of the game engine or the limitations of the patience and skills of the scripters and devs.
Common resources (e.g. herbs for potions, iron ore) would have to be just that: Common, possibly even available from shops. If everyone is drawing from the same pool of resources they will be exhausted moments after each reset.
Rare resources will need to have random placements otherwise you'll have dedicated "harvesters" grabbing it all: preventing others from participating and cornering the market on those materials (somewhat defeating the point of a crafting system).
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Valefort
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by Valefort »

Calodan wrote: That does not mean the server should not create a item crafting system either. I really feel like you are grasping at straws at this point because you do not want it in.

Also you did not answer my question. In fact I believe the server is ignoring that.

You argue that gear and mechanics hold no sway over RP and fun and replay of this server but then when we want to implement this you now say that gear and mechanics are important for replaying the game? I do not buy it.
I didn't answer because I had no idea you adressed me, I never once said that gear and mechanics hold no sway over RP and fun, that's playing your character sheet. While my PC is no allmighty powerbuild he's far from powerless either and I wouldn't have much fun playing a mechanically weak character. That point is however completely personal, I think that everyone has a level of power he's comfortable with.

Also if you read my post in the first page I clearly say that the problem lies in power creep, optimization and permanency, not crafting in general. I'm fine with enchantments fading over time (for epic enchantment, medium can probably be permanent), this would be essentially a continuation of UMD and consumables. However one has to point out that this would favor people who make a lot of gold (these temporary epic enchantment can't cost peanuts and be easily available or everyone would have them all the time) and there would be some power creep.

I also like the recipe idea, some basic recipes that everyone knows and then PCs experimenting and being awarded recipes by DMs, even though developing wise this sounds like it would need constant work.
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Steve
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by Steve »

What is the longest but temporary form of Enhancement that can be supported mechanically? Until Resting? Until Server Restart? Until X real life days?

An Enchanting System that is temporary with "fading" magic sounds very appealing, however, with so much gold already in inventories and the infinite production of it, many Players could already afford constant-temporary improvements.

Which then would be like potions/elixirs/scrolls/UMD.

Or, allowing Enchanting to place ONLY number-of-use enchantments, like Wands/Rods, onto Items.

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electric mayhem
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by electric mayhem »

In summary: The Crafting system that was prevalent on NWN1, especially the Anphillia servers (think it may have appeared on others?).
It included Baking, Brewing, Tailoring, Farming, Mining, Enchanting, Tinkering, Alchemy, Weapon/Armor Smithing, Woodwork, Fishing and a few others.

The ability to make food, drink (that actually gave short term buffs), eating had a meaning for your character too! RP gadgets and equipment could be made as well.

There was a whole sub-side levelling system associated with the craft skills too, which rewarded persistence and access to higher level recipes etc.

I can write up more details on how this system operates if requested.

But that was ideal, didn't replace reliance on acquiring high level items from epic shops or RNG Loot drops and added HUGE RP flavour to characters that didnt want to smash things all the time.
Actually allowed characters to roleplay side businesses... properly.



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dedude
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by dedude »

electric mayhem wrote:I can write up more details on how this system operates if requested.
No need, we are well aware of the system. Issue is fitting crafting into this server. Most successful crafting servers were designed around it as a core component from the start, or the server was refactored to make it fit.

This server was designed after the Diablo theme: pop some random loot and trade with other players on the auction house.
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electric mayhem
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by electric mayhem »

dedude wrote:
electric mayhem wrote:I can write up more details on how this system operates if requested.
No need, we are well aware of the system. Issue is fitting crafting into this server. Most successful crafting servers were designed around it as a core component from the start, or the server was refactored to make it fit.
Sweet as.
This server was designed after the Diablo theme: pop some random loot and trade with other players on the auction house.
Where's the Nephalim Obelisk? :P



~Claret - Proprietor of Clarity Cellars.
~Wouveir - Hellstorm Crew
~Adolamin Marblerune - Arcane Engineer and Lorekeeper citizen of the Kingdom of Kraak Helzak. [His Story]
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Calodan
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by Calodan »

Valefort wrote:
Calodan wrote: That does not mean the server should not create a item crafting system either. I really feel like you are grasping at straws at this point because you do not want it in.

Also you did not answer my question. In fact I believe the server is ignoring that.

You argue that gear and mechanics hold no sway over RP and fun and replay of this server but then when we want to implement this you now say that gear and mechanics are important for replaying the game? I do not buy it.
I didn't answer because I had no idea you adressed me, I never once said that gear and mechanics hold no sway over RP and fun, that's playing your character sheet. While my PC is no allmighty powerbuild he's far from powerless either and I wouldn't have much fun playing a mechanically weak character. That point is however completely personal, I think that everyone has a level of power he's comfortable with.

Also if you read my post in the first page I clearly say that the problem lies in power creep, optimization and permanency, not crafting in general. I'm fine with enchantments fading over time (for epic enchantment, medium can probably be permanent), this would be essentially a continuation of UMD and consumables. However one has to point out that this would favor people who make a lot of gold (these temporary epic enchantment can't cost peanuts and be easily available or everyone would have them all the time) and there would be some power creep.

I also like the recipe idea, some basic recipes that everyone knows and then PCs experimenting and being awarded recipes by DMs, even though developing wise this sounds like it would need constant work.
Okay fair enough and yes it was more general. I agree that power creep is an issue and it needs to be done right for sure. There are a lot of great ideas going through this so I hope something can be done and we get to a good place where this can be implemented in a way the enhances the BG experience. :D
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Wandering_Woodsman
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by Wandering_Woodsman »

So here's a simple random thought:

Would it be possible to figure out, not necessarily a full implementation of crafting, but a partial? For example, basic consumable crafting? Heal kits & potions using alchemy plants, arrows/bolts using wood piles/bird nests in the world, and the like using in-game crafting skills?

Again, I'm not lookin' for, nor asking for a full on system. Let's just test the waters a bit with something small and simple(ish).
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aaron22
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by aaron22 »

+4 enchantment to AC/EB is not power creeping unless it is mithral. and really that is less super-duper being as the builds that benefit the most from Mithral are magic using builds that can apply +4 or +6 to AC. +4 to an ability score is epic. and if lets say slot one could give +2 enchantment or +2 ability score and slot two can give +2 enchantment or +1 ability score. and slot 3 does not offer an enchantment or ability score bonus then the choice to make it how you like is better without having a more powerful piece than the epic stores and certainly smaller than the RIG.
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Wandering_Woodsman
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by Wandering_Woodsman »

Hrm, an idea could also be that in order to craft ANYTHING you have to 'rent' some sort of facility to create. Sort of like the factories in star wars galaxies back in the day. Granted, SWG officially died out, but the emulator is still goin' strong and churnin' out good ideas.

Why not one of those craft halls or something? Or you pay for the time of a craftsman, but in order to warrant a high level crafting, you must yourself prove your competence through trials of craftsmanship, or something? Plus you pay for the time/effort/use of tools/facilities.

Level 1 crafter - basic ammunition and weapons (daggers and the like). You get an apprentice ranked crafter to work with.

Level 3 - standard weapons, starting armor (light chain, leather, etc).

Level 5 -- ?

Eventually, you'd be making high quality weapons, talking with master crafters, and paying quite a bit of coin for their time, trouble, equipment and facilities.

Just a thought.
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CleverUsername123
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by CleverUsername123 »

oooh, a place I can rant without getting in trouble.

Okay! Here are my probably-awful ideas:

MUNDANE CRAFTING
Mundane crafting doesn't require molds. That's stupid. Why would you need a mold to make a quarterstaff?
You automatically get a feat to 'Craft Weapons' when you have a total of 10 ranks in Craft Weapons. Ditto armor. Add a new Craft Jewelry or something for necklaces, I don't know.
You need leather for handles and wood or metal for the other parts. You have limited-use tools that break after you use them a few times to make the actual stuff, consuming the ingredients and creating the item. You have a % chance of failure depending on your skill ranks.
ENCHANTING/MAGIC CRAFTING
You need lots of components for this, but it doesn't directly take up any gold. Instead, you can hire people to go get those components for you. Gathering components is Craft Alchemy and/or Survival, and you can find them on mobs or randomly in the wild. You refine those components into essences, like the base game.
You take those to a special crafting bench. Put one in the Baldur's Gate magic shop and one inside the Friendly Arm, maybe one inside the Temple of Mystra?
You use the Imbue Item and Rune spells on the bench with the item to enchant in it. The components are taken from your inventory.
SALVAGING MAGIC ITEMS
You can salvage magic items to make essences also! Using the same gold-piece-value-finder as the Consignment Shop has, it determines how much a magic item is worth and awards you essences based off of that. Maybe it gives you different types based on what effects the item has, I don't know. I bet there'd be a big market for essences.

To make it even better, add a chance of failure to the enchantment process too! All the essences lost! Maybe an explosion that deals magic/fire damage to the crafter! It'll be great!
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by Egg Shen »

Agree with Aaron that power creep isn't really an issue. Agree with Steve that philosophically we shouldn't worry about what the ability to perfect a character's equipment means in the long run (spoiler: it won't hurt the server, and if it actually did cost players, I suspect we would barely notice their absence from a RP perspective).

Very much ambivalent about chad's concerns re: casters benefitting more than anybody else due to spells like GMW. My first reaction is . . . So what (and I don't play clerics/gishes myself)?? But if it's really a problem, we can always adjust how the spells work, rather than scrap an otherwise good idea because of a few spells that can be combined with customized gear in a way we find to be bad for balance.

Feel okay with the shops < mudd's < crafting < epic shops < RIG breakdown as a good target when it come to overall conceptual balancing for crafting and enchanting.

Just feedback. Nothing really new to add. I'm not too miffed about how it gets implemented. I will say that I think we could just have npc's handle the whole damn system for gold. Making people role up yet another specialized character that isn't their main is just...bleh. We already have mules, loot grinders, scroll/potion/wand makers, etc. all clogging up the vault. I suppose the few people who want to actually role play an enchanter should be able to do so, but I feel like the skills and feats could just translate to a discount on services at the npc's the rest of us use.
Kalgain
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by Kalgain »

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Enchanting

After looking at the list of possible enchantments, I would like to see saving throws added to the list.
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Marathados
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by Marathados »

Kalgain wrote:https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Enchanting

After looking at the list of possible enchantments, I would like to see saving throws added to the list.
Is the limit 20 there?
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aaron22
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Re: Focused Discussion: Crafting

Unread post by aaron22 »

and how would you reveal an items limit?
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