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Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:42 pm
by Thorsson
RaiderOne wrote:My point is that no one gave me these things and I was able to find or acquire them all IC with no muleing/twinking or friends on this server to help me.
At some point the game has to become challenging that a single player cannot walk through any idea he chooses without consequence. That end game content is always +2 above the players and forces them to group (or whatever it actually is) is a normal design decision for games of this type.
That being said I do think that BG city should have traders representative of its prominence within the setting. That the random merchant at Ulgoths or another small town sells +2/+3 stuff and the BG smith has nothing but mundane is strange. It would be nice for these merchants to have some random nice things at random time periods, though that would need some tweaking to stop a mad rush to see whats in the shops.
More needs to be done for BG players to use BG city, other than new players in the farmlands area its a ghost town. Which is very wrong IMO since it should be a focal point of the server (hence the name).
Yes you can find such gear without muling, although you may have been lucky. Better stuff not so easily was my point.
And the point isn't that the gear should be good enough to solo, but that every person should have access to the same level of gear - eventually.
Your point on BG city is agreed. Indeed it should have very good gear, although certain specialist items may be only available elsewhere and prices may reflect the fact that certain items are imported. A lot more could have been done on the trading front, but crafting has been the goal of many for a long, long time.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:08 pm
by kellendril
I can agree with the OP on this point to an extent. I don't love that people mule items that can alter the balance of the game to low level characters, especially when PVP is a possibility. I've personally not been in a situation to mule, as I basically play only one character in all my years on the server, but I think the concern that continual muling brings is that it focuses power in those that can play 12 hours a day, because they tend to have more good items per character, which can all be muled to each new character. This gives a somewhat unfair advantage in PVP. I don't care much how people PVE, that's their own issue, and they can do what they want there. When it impacts me directly, I take issue.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:19 am
by Brother Bruce
kellendril wrote:I can agree with the OP on this point to an extent. I don't love that people mule items that can alter the balance of the game to low level characters, especially when PVP is a possibility. I've personally not been in a situation to mule, as I basically play only one character in all my years on the server, but I think the concern that continual muling brings is that it focuses power in those that can play 12 hours a day, because they tend to have more good items per character, which can all be muled to each new character. This gives a somewhat unfair advantage in PVP. I don't care much how people PVE, that's their own issue, and they can do what they want there. When it impacts me directly, I take issue.
You dont care how much people pve but you care about them having a mechanical advantage because of the time they spent getting equipment through pve. okay. Also given the way the rules are regarding RP outs and pvp, you arent forced into pvp unless you're a target for assassination (and how often do those ever get DM oversight?) so there's absolutely no need to bring pvp into this. If you're that affected by pvp, avoid it, though it's amusing to me you take issue with low levels being kitted with things as though you're a low level yourself.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:48 am
by NegInfinity
kellendril wrote:continual muling brings is that it focuses power in those that can play 12 hours a day, because
Uh, it is the opposite. Muling allows playing with limited time. Because once you've got the damn item, it stays with you across. Because of this you can try new concepts and new characters.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:01 am
by kellendril
You dont care how much people pve but you care about them having a mechanical advantage because of the time they spent getting equipment through pve. okay. Also given the way the rules are regarding RP outs and pvp, you arent forced into pvp unless you're a target for assassination (and how often do those ever get DM oversight?) so there's absolutely no need to bring pvp into this. If you're that affected by pvp, avoid it, though it's amusing to me you take issue with low levels being kitted with things as though you're a low level yourself.
Obviously, you think PVP only happens according to the rules? Let me assure you, it does not. Avoiding it isn't always possible, even though the RP out is supposed to be offered, sometimes, it is for literally a second. Typing in your emote response can get you killed while the other player pats themselves ont he back for their offering of an out. I do take issue with low levels being given epic gear that they have absolutely no RP reason for owning outside of a god modded situation. I suppose when I finally decide to kill off Eowiel I will a decision to make.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:03 am
by kellendril
NegInfinity wrote:kellendril wrote:continual muling brings is that it focuses power in those that can play 12 hours a day, because
Uh, it is the opposite. Muling allows playing with limited time. Because once you've got the damn item, it stays with you across. Because of this you can try new concepts and new characters.
It isn't the opposite. It might include what you mention, sure, but when people power level and grind out 30 levels in a month, they certainly collect more gear than a single item of worth. Transfer this to a new character and wash/rinse/repeat, and what you get is a concentration of powerful items in an ever growing line of new toons.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:10 am
by Hawke
Muling would not be that much of an issue if the level limits on items were still enabled. And would quell a lot of the opposition on the lowbie PC being too strong.
But that ship has sailed.
On a side note. I saw the pack horses, looks great. But I would have appreciated the symbolism if horses were actual mules
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:12 am
by aaron22
i do this. huge line of toons and tons of gear, let me tell you. those that focus on one toon and gear it is way better off. they have much better gear sets. for sure.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:15 am
by aaron22
Hawke wrote:
On a side note. I saw the pack horses, looks great. But I would have appreciated the symbolism if horses were actual mules
does the UD get the huge spiders? can i get slave goblin wagon? jk the pack horses look great. cool script to them too.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:16 am
by kellendril
Like Hawke said, the ship has sailed. My only point in mentioning it above was to put it out there. As I said, I don't really care how people use their toons in PVE. It's your game, you can play it how you want. It would certainly make the lower levels easier for many builds, I can't deny that, and will feel sorely tempted if I ever retire Eowiel.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:20 am
by RaiderOne
kellendril wrote:Like Hawke said, the ship has sailed. My only point in mentioning it above was to put it out there. As I said, I don't really care how people use their toons in PVE. It's your game, you can play it how you want. It would certainly make the lower levels easier for many builds, I can't deny that, and will feel sorely tempted if I ever retire Eowiel.
When that temptation comes just hold your breath and press the delete option. You may regret it for a few hours but once its done you can move on to newer more exciting opportunities.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:37 am
by mrm3ntalist
Hawke wrote:Muling would not be that much of an issue if the level limits on items were still enabled. And would quell a lot of the opposition on the lowbie PC being too strong.
How much of an issue is it? Is there a metric or a reasoning behind this? Because even with the item limitation, you could ( and I did ) always equip the max items the characters could get, getting AC highers than the mobs AB +20, AB higher than the mobs AC etc.
If the mob cannot hit you when you have 30AC, does it matter if you get to 39? So what issue you speak about?
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:08 pm
by Thorsson
mrm3ntalist wrote:Hawke wrote:Muling would not be that much of an issue if the level limits on items were still enabled. And would quell a lot of the opposition on the lowbie PC being too strong.
How much of an issue is it? Is there a metric or a reasoning behind this? Because even with the item limitation, you could ( and I did ) always equip the max items the characters could get, getting AC highers than the mobs AB +20, AB higher than the mobs AC etc.
If the mob cannot hit you when you have 30AC, does it matter if you get to 39? So what issue you speak about?
There is an issue. The issue is one of balance. If one PC has 30AC and another, made exactly the same way, has 39AC, how does the team balance the game for the haves and have nots? You seem to say the answer is that you don't balance it for either in the early levels, but for 20AC (say). Pardon me if I suggest that is not a good design decision.
Fact is if you allow twinking you should have level restrictions, as we had originally, simply from a design perspective. Not sure why birds have flown, but I reiterate what I said earlier - given these decisions it only makes sense to make the getting of this gear easier for everyone. Only then can the game be properly balanced for everyone.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:22 pm
by mrm3ntalist
Thorsson wrote:There is an issue. The issue is one of balance. If one PC has 30AC and another, made exactly the same way, has 39AC, how does the team balance the game for the haves and have nots? You seem to say the answer is that you don't balance it for either in the early levels, but for 20AC (say). Pardon me if I suggest that is not a good design decision.
Fact is if you allow twinking you should have level restrictions, as we had originally, simply from a design perspective. Not sure why birds have flown, but I reiterate what I said earlier - given these decisions it only makes sense to make the getting of this gear easier for everyone. Only then can the game be properly balanced for everyone.
The difference in numbers is minimal. Even with item restrictions, you can "immune" against mobs. You can have AC more than the mobs AB +20, you can equip SR items from level1 ( UD shop), you can use potions. Against PvE, the balance concern is non existent.
In PvP, which i assume you talk about, this can be an issue at the very early levels. As you progress in levels that becomes 0 ( around level 10 ).
I am going to quote the last think you said.
Only then can the game be properly balanced for everyone.
How on earth, item level descriptions help with this??? Apart from PvP and only at the low levels, removing the itemlevel restrictions, bring low level characters closer to epic, especially in DM events involving skill rolls.
So that "proper balance
for everyone" is better taken care with no item level restrictions.
Re: Muleing / Twinking discussion
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:57 pm
by Theodore01
mrm3ntalist wrote:In PvP, which i assume you talk about, this can be an issue at the very early levels. As you progress in levels that becomes 0 ( around level 10 ).
No, it's not PvP - it's with any low or mid level PvM adventuring group, where most members have gear that fit's their level or that they found on their own and one party member has muled greater/epic gear. Guess how much fun the other party members have, playing along that "über" toon, who does never get hit and kills all in a blink.
