The Strongest Necromancer Build - In your opinion!

[Incarnate]

A recently a discussion got me thinking about a:

Cleric 10/Hierophant 10/Shadow Adept 10... Base caster level varies for school of magic, etc...

10 (Base)
+ 11 (Wisdom)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus Necromancy)
+ 2 (Shadow Magic User)
+ 5 (Epic caster Bonus)
+ 0 ~ 4+ (Advanced Divine Spell Power, could be higher)
= 31 ~ 35+

You will also add your spell level on top of that.

Thus you can cast those 300 point Harms with DC of 37 ~ 41+.

The cap is at 150 dmg, but thats still quite a lot considering the DC will be that high, it would be the equivalent of a maximized spell that dealt 25d6.

[Deathgrowl]

The cap is at 150 dmg

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... #Abilities

Blast Infidel
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Hierophant 1
Specifics: The Hierophant now deals double the damage for any negative energy spells that he casts (inflict wounds series, death knell, harm, slay living and negative energy ray). This does not apply to Vampiric Feast or Spell-like abilities.
Use: Automatic

[Sun Wukong]

Yeah, it is 300 damage with Blast Infidel, and 150 if the target makes its save.

[Incarnate]

The cap is at 150 dmg

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... #Abilities

Blast Infidel
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Hierophant 1
Specifics: The Hierophant now deals double the damage for any negative energy spells that he casts (inflict wounds series, death knell, harm, slay living and negative energy ray). This does not apply to Vampiric Feast or Spell-like abilities.
Use: Automatic

Oh, yeah thats true. 300 dmg with that high DC, its going to be insta-kill for most, and if not, then they're severely wounded. Seems quite powerful and its much better than a save or die spell because it actually deals damage. I wonder if this combo has been considered by the dm's

Considering an evil cleric can spontaneously cast all spells in inflict wounds series, the necromancer will have an arsenal of damaging spells available, but because the can be spontaneously cast the necromancer can quite freely choose other spells needed and would still have an arsenal of inflict wounds available

[Sun Wukong]

Shadow Adept is one of the application classes...

And anyhow... Wizard 6/Archmage 4/Red Wizard 10/Shadow Adept 10...

Could have DCs of:
10 (Base)
+ 12 (Intelligence)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus Necromancy)
+ 2 (Shadow Weave Bonus)
+ 1 (Red Wizard Bonus)
+ 6 (Epic Caster Bonus)
= 34

Thus... You could cast a Wail of Banshee with the DC of 43. (And neither of these builds are 100% min maxed... just so you know...)

[Incarnate]

Shadow Adept is one of the application classes...

And anyhow... Wizard 6/Archmage 4/Red Wizard 10/Shadow Adept 10...

Could have DCs of:
10 (Base)
+ 12 (Intelligence)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus Necromancy)
+ 2 (Shadow Weave Bonus)
+ 1 (Red Wizard Bonus)
+ 6 (Epic Caster Bonus)
= 34

Thus... You could cast a Wail of Banshee with the DC of 43. (And neither of these builds are 100% min maxed... just so you know...)

I think you mean Wail of the Banshee with a DC of 34 and not 43.

A DC of 43 is almost unbeatable - for instance a fighter (and those with similar fort progression) at level 30 who've gone with 26 in constitution would have a fortitude save of:
17 (Base)
+8 (Constitution)
= 25

43-(25+20) = -2 | 20-2 = 18.

...so in conclusion, only the most resilient of fighters (and those with similar fort progression) at lvl 30 would have a marginally better chance at surviving it - a roll of 18 or better (15%), and others would only survive on a natural 20 (5%). I don't know about you, but that to me seems a bit concerning, especially when considering that Wail of the Banshee isn't a single target but actually a colossal area of effect. Of course there are gear and spells that will help offset a high dc such as that one, but from a gamebalance perspective its still requires the gear and/or spell enhancements, so from a game balance perspective it should be considered without the gear and spell enchancements.

[Sun Wukong]

EDM Fighter 12/Blackguard 3/Divine Champion 10/Frenzied Berserker 5, for a:

22 (Base fortitude saving throw: +8, +3, +7, +4)
+ 5 (Divine Champion's Sacred Defense)
+ 8 (Charisma modifier to saves)
+ 2 (Constitution modifier with base 10 and +4 item)
+ 2 (Darkened Ring of Resistance, +2 to all saves)
= 39

You can get +3 against spells from 15 ranks of Spellcraft. Not to mention that you could wear a Helm of Defense for additional +2 to all Saves... And get that Steadfast Determination so that even if you roll a one, you will not die to that Wail of Banshee.

44 + 1d20 > DC of 43...

Edit: Oh, and you can do a similar EDM build with Paladin.

[Incarnate]

EDM Fighter 12/Blackguard 3/Divine Champion 10/Frenzied Berserker 5, for a:

22 (Base fortitude saving throw: +8, +3, +7, +4)
+ 5 (Divine Champion's Sacred Defense)
+ 8 (Charisma modifier to saves)
+ 2 (Constitution modifier with base 10 and +4 item)
+ 2 (Darkened Ring of Resistance, +2 to all saves)
= 39

You can get +3 against spells from 15 ranks of Spellcraft. Not to mention that you could wear a Helm of Defense for additional +2 to all Saves... And get that Steadfast Determination so that even if you roll a one, you will not die to that Wail of Banshee.

44 + 1d20 > DC of 43...

That is a very specific example, try using a more generic example.

A spellcraft of 15 is not very likely on characters that don't have it as a class skill, and for many wouldn't make sense from an rp-perspective. Also as I mention, gear should and spell effects should be kept out of the equation for game balance perspective.

Steadfast Determination:
You do not automatically fail Fortitude saves on a roll of natural 1.

This doesn't mean that won't die to a wail of the banshee just because you roll a 1, this just means that you won't automatically fail for rolling a 1, IF you don't beat the dc you still fail, and against Wail of the Banshee it means your character dies, but yes in your example the 1 would make the character survive - but that a very specific example geared specifically towards having high saves - the majority of character won't have all of what you suggested.

If we take my example of a fighter at level 30 with a constitution of 26 and a little more to it, we're again making it too specific, because most characters won't have this. But still if we did lets go ahead and add some:
17 (Base)
+8 (Constitution)
+2 (Greater Fortitude)
+4 (Epic Fortitude)
+2 (Darkened Ring of Resistance, +2 to all saves)
+3 (15 Spellcraft)
+3 (Helm of Defense)
+0 (Steadfast Determination - won't auto fail fortitude save on natural 1's)
= 39

43-39 = 4 | 80% chance of survival.

However, the above would require a huge dedication to constitution, 2 feats+1 epic feat, and 30 skill points invested into spellcraft when cross-class and without able learner. It would also require that Helm of Defense is acquired and worn (which means you carry this in favor of better saves), the same goes for Darkened Ring of Resistance.

Your example requires, Divine Champion Class with 10 levels in it, it requires 26 charisma, a spellcraft of 15, 3 specific magical items, Blackguard Dark Blessing class feature, so thats a minimum of 13 specific PrC class levels. Thats a very specific case.

See what I'm getting at? The more you add to it the more specific it becomes and less comparable to something thats more generic it becomes. For the majority of characters they won't have so high fortitude saves. Yes gear and magic can help offset it, but it still requires that the characters are under that kind of influence. Balance wise, most will only be able to beat a DC of 43 on a natural 20 UNLESS specifically build and geared towards it.

[Deathgrowl]

Again, you're comparing to PvP. DC spells are not likely to be very useful in PvP almost regardless of who you fight. Maybe some UMD lacking rogues (if those even exist) will be good targets for your fortitude based DC spells, but for the most part, you'd probably want to go a different route.

[Incarnate]

Again, you're comparing to PvP. DC spells are not likely to be very useful in PvP almost regardless of who you fight. Maybe some UMD lacking rogues (if those even exist) will be good targets for your fortitude based DC spells, but for the most part, you'd probably want to go a different route.

Doesn't matter if this is compared to PvP or PvE, because the point is even with PvP many won't be build or geared towards it. Right now, its assumed that someone did go this route, there are DC-based spellcasters out there. I'd like to know why dc spells aren't likely to be useful in PvP as being a DC-based caster is a big aspect of being a Red Wizard or a Shadow Adept.

[Deathgrowl]

Again, you're comparing to PvP. DC spells are not likely to be very useful in PvP almost regardless of who you fight. Maybe some UMD lacking rogues (if those even exist) will be good targets for your fortitude based DC spells, but for the most part, you'd probably want to go a different route.

Doesn't matter if this is compared to PvP or PvE, because the point is even with PvP many won't be geared towards it. Right now, its assumed that someone did go this route, there are DC-based spellcasters out there. I'd like to know why dc spells aren't likely to be useful in PvP as being a DC-based caster is a big aspect of being a Red Wizard or a Shadow Adept.

I don't have access to the statistics, but maybe Valefort can whip up something. However, I'm pretty certain that virtually all non-caster characters on the server have at the very least enough UMD to use a wand. That gives access to Least Spell Mantle and Lesser Spell Breach. And Protection from Alignment (mind immunity vs alignment) and Death Ward.

Moreover, availability of save gear is pretty good.

[Incarnate]

Again, you're comparing to PvP. DC spells are not likely to be very useful in PvP almost regardless of who you fight. Maybe some UMD lacking rogues (if those even exist) will be good targets for your fortitude based DC spells, but for the most part, you'd probably want to go a different route.

Doesn't matter if this is compared to PvP or PvE, because the point is even with PvP many won't be geared towards it. Right now, its assumed that someone did go this route, there are DC-based spellcasters out there. I'd like to know why dc spells aren't likely to be useful in PvP as being a DC-based caster is a big aspect of being a Red Wizard or a Shadow Adept.

I don't have access to the statistics, but maybe Valefort can whip up something. However, I'm pretty certain that virtually all non-caster characters on the server have at the very least enough UMD to use a wand. That gives access to Least Spell Mantle and Lesser Spell Breach. And Protection from Alignment (mind immunity vs alignment) and Death Ward.

Moreover, availability of save gear is pretty good.

To me this seems like that the availability of these items is too high if it means that dc-based casters won't be viable, and too many are going for UMD just because of a mechanical necessity rather than for rp-reasons - last I checked this was an RP-server.

[Sun Wukong]

Even if it is not to use wands, it is to lift items from their alignment or class restrictions.

For example randomly generated pair of +4 Dodge boots that require you to be evil. Without UMD you would have to trade it to some other pair of +4 Dodge boots.

[Incarnate]

Even if it is not to use wands, it is to lift items from their alignment or class restrictions.

For example randomly generated pair of +4 Dodge boots that require you to be evil. Without UMD you would have to trade it to some other pair of +4 Dodge boots.

..and for most having to trade it would make a lot of sense, its just more convenient not having to trade it and still be able to use it. Considering UMD is a class skill for classes such as: Bard, Rogue, Warlock, Assassin. This means it makes more sense for these to have it than otherwise, that doesn't mean that others can't take it, but that everyone basically takes it out of a mechanical necessity says something very important. It also makes an indication that almost everyone is using magic items and with reliable proficiency, even commoners which is far from true in this setting. Considering its a trained only skill it means that those who has it actually would have spent a great deal of time learning this, or who've had some one teach them. To me it just seems wrong if almost every character on the server has points enough in it to be able to use wands of at least level 5.

[Deathgrowl]

To me this seems like that the availability of these items is too high if it means that dc-based casters won't be viable, and too many are going for UMD just because of a mechanical necessity rather than for rp-reasons - last I checked this was an RP-server.

Indeed. Which makes at least me cringe when people build specifically for winning PvP (to the detriment of story).