Is 3 Levels -by 20- Necessary?

[Flights of Fantasy]

That is what I am saying! as long as we have 3b in the equation then the true cheese ball builds are curbed. Throw in the dispel fix the need to go full 30CL is real on this server so just going GISH will cost you on this server alone even under 3b20. Yeah there might be some slight power bumps in a few builds but otherwise the entirety of the server will stay intact in my opinion.

I agree. I'm not a building expert, but I feel the resistance to changing this is just that, resistance to change. It's been a rule for such a long time that even changing a part of it is out the question to players that have been devoted to the server since the early days. This is natural, though. Getting everyone involved in the discussion will help because people are more inclined to accept a change when they're involved in the planning.

[Flights of Fantasy]

Not exactly... This still would mean casters get 2 bonus feats for a 3 level dip while 'true' fighters are depowered in the early levels. Not exactly friendly to new players trying their first PC on the server while doing nothing to make casters avoid the class. Plus by going to 3b30 they are still getting those 2 bonus feats in the epic levels, which just isn't a good way to go IMO.

That's not necessarily true. Like I pointed out earlier with the DC example, I believe you can make it so those first two bonus feats can't be used for epic feats even if taken during epic levels. Bonus feats after level 3 then gain access to epic feats as they do now.

As for early levels, that would be the same for just about every class. Though some may need a temporary form of penalty to be as "weak" as the other classes. Sorcerers, for example, would only loose access to their familiar until level 3. So maybe they are stuck with a fixed 25% spell failure until they hit 3. The other option is to give PCs that exit the Nexus with less than 100 XP enough XP to hit character level 3. That way they can reach class level 3 of their base class from the beginning and avoid the startup difficulty.

I still do not get why this is an issue? For most builds that would utilize the extra feats by taking a couple extra Great Strength for 1AB.......Give me an example of where those feats are utilized that gives the kind of boosts that you feel you need to limit where that feat is taken? It is one thing to say thing is so. It is another to provide an actual example for us to see.

I'm assuming you're addressing my part of the post. That's just to appease what other players have pointed out as an unfair advantage for PCs that take the first three levels of fighter (or any class with bonus feats) in Epic levels compared to a PC that takes them before 21. It maintains the balance.

[chad878262]

Yes, that is one thought when discussing a change. If such a change from 3b20 were to occur we might do that. However, I do not think you can go by level so if feat at 1/2/x can't be epic, then none of the bonus feats can be (not sure if you can make it so only feats at class level 20+ can be epic picks). If this is not the case again, you're hurting more pure melee builds with such a rule.

In any case, as I said, if such a rule were to be changed there likely would be caveats to attempt to curb the worst of the power building. Which means there would still likely be things that would need to be monitored/governed to some extent. This makes keeping the status quo seem a bit more realistic.

The OP/Subject is with regards to the rule being 'necessary' and the answer is that without that rule, something else needs to be considered to maintain balance of PC's and PvE. PC's have been powered up quite a bit in the past 2 + years, but the environment hasn't really kept up. Players still complain it's too hard while others say there is too much content that can be solo'd, not enough to challenge groups. Making it possible to build more powerful PC's (higher DC's, more epic feats, better skill splits, etc.) would IMO necessitate revamping the high teen's and epic CR area's to compensate.

As to an example, four levels of Divine Champion in Epics would give +2 WIS (thus +1 DC) to caster Clerics. With Practiced Caster at 18 they are still Caster Level 30. Taking Hierophant pre-epic allows for more Caster levels as well as Enhanced Divine Spell Power for higher CL/DC's. So CL33 with a potential to increase from ADSP. DC's can already hit low to mid 40's so giving more bonuses wouldn't be a good thing IMO. I don't think anyone is worried about an extra Great STR, but Great INT? Why would any Wizard NOT take 3 or 4 levels to get those juicy DC points?

[Born2BeWild]

Not exactly... This still would mean casters get 2 bonus feats for a 3 level dip while 'true' fighters are depowered in the early levels. Not exactly friendly to new players trying their first PC on the server while doing nothing to make casters avoid the class. Plus by going to 3b30 they are still getting those 2 bonus feats in the epic levels, which just isn't a good way to go IMO.

That's not necessarily true. Like I pointed out earlier with the DC example, I believe you can make it so those first two bonus feats can't be used for epic feats even if taken during epic levels. Bonus feats after level 3 then gain access to epic feats as they do now.

As for early levels, that would be the same for just about every class. Though some may need a temporary form of penalty to be as "weak" as the other classes. Sorcerers, for example, would only loose access to their familiar until level 3. So maybe they are stuck with a fixed 25% spell failure until they hit 3. The other option is to give PCs that exit the Nexus with less than 100 XP enough XP to hit character level 3. That way they can reach class level 3 of their base class from the beginning and avoid the startup difficulty.

I still do not get why this is an issue? For most builds that would utilize the extra feats by taking a couple extra Great Strength for 1AB.......Give me an example of where those feats are utilized that gives the kind of boosts that you feel you need to limit where that feat is taken? It is one thing to say thing is so. It is another to provide an actual example for us to see.

You can use DC bonus feats for autoquicks for example

[Flights of Fantasy]

However, I do not think you can go by level so if feat at 1/2/x can't be epic, then none of the bonus feats can be (not sure if you can make it so only feats at class level 20+ can be epic picks).

Assuming that is the case, couldn't you make a second bonus feat list? The first list would contain only the non-epic bonus feats and be used for class level 3. The second list is the one we have now and is used from class level 4 and on.

If this is not the case again, you're hurting more pure melee builds with such a rule.

How so? With the current 3by20 rule, they essentially have to do the same thing. It doesn't matter if they're a pure fighter or mixing with other melee classes & PrCs. You have to take those first 3 class levels by character level 20. "Power at 3" essentially does the same thing. The difference is that players can take their 3 levels whenever they want but given incentive to get to class level 3 as soon as possible to gain the basic benefits of the class.

[joleda]

I think what many people forget is that the intended level cap for 3.5e is level 20. Doing any significant multi-classing could result in not being able to cast level 9 spells. Moving the level cap to 30 might be the biggest culprit for the cheese ball builds.

Most, if not all, cheese ball caster builds have Practiced Spellcaster. Imagine if Practiced Spellcaster didn't exist. Would these cheesy builds exist even with 3-by rules? Without Practiced Spellcaster, multi-classing could mean you'll be more likely to get dispelled.

[Flights of Fantasy]

That is an option and something I’ve begun to appreciate on NWN:EE.