The Infinite Unbalanced BGTSCC Mechanics Thread

[DM Soulcatcher]

3.5 D&D Mechanics in their entirety.

[Sun Wukong]

The DM that comes up with some asine restrictions on shadows is just plain incompetent. A shadow only requires a source of light, and objects. The only place where HiPS doesn't have a shadow is on the planer Plane of Lightless Visibility and Absolute Flatness.

The only place Where HiPS doesn't have a shadow is on the planar Plane of Universally Constant Illumination and Absolute Flatness.

I disagree. If you're out in the middle of the plains surrounded by grass or in the midst of a desert there would be a distinct lack of shadows which you could use as cover (for example).

Do I need to paste pictures of grass blades casting their shadow? Do I need to paste pictures of desert dunes casting their shadow? The description of the ability makes no distinction to the shape or dimension of the shadow. You are not even described to hide in the shadow, it is only enough that you are within the range of another shadow than your own. You basically just pop invisible, unless your hide skill roll is less than an observer's spot skill roll.

How something works is irrelevant. You might just as well demand a wizard to explain their fireball spell before they can use it. A good PnP DM simply knows how to counter the player shenanigans without the need to come up with arbitary limitations. For example a necromancer with a host of undead minions leaves that shadowdancing rogue surprisingly few valid targets for sneak attacks. And so on... and so on.

[blowuup]

I have to mention Bigby's again for a third time.

Especially combined with Isaac's Greater Missile Storm.

Low-level areas for newcomers. Many will go to the graveyard first and be crushed.

Encounters made more difficult by increasing monster stats rather than variety (Large HP Pools and the nonsense saving throws of high-level mobs)

[Arn]

I have to mention Bigby's again for a third time.

Bigby 7 and 9, when casted by players, seem to be much less effective than they used to be. They just summon a giant hand that kind of floats around and doesn't do much. So I don't think the Bigby spells are OP anymore. Maybe I am missing something, though.
When casted by bosses though, these Bigby spells still function as a one-shot "you lose" ability.

Disparity between Level 1 and 30 PCs interacting with each other.

Yeah, having a level cap of 30 makes the server unbalanced all on its own. But lowering the cap would be server suicide, so I doubt that will ever happen.

Regarding the Epic shops...

Epic shops make flippin' sweet gear available for everyone, and that means grandfathered gear is a bit less enviable. So I think epic shops are the most balanced thing being mentioned in this thread. Maybe if the best items in the loot table could match grandfathered gear, epic shops could/should be nerfed. Until then though, I like epic shops.

Manyshot + DA

Having rolled up a toon that takes advantage of Manyshot/DA, I think the damage output is probably less than a F/FB/WM build. Especially considering that the big damage burst of Manyshot/DA builds is only in the initial flurry, and then your subsequent attacks in the round are considerably less stellar.

[Valefort]

Bigby 7 & 9, wether cast by players or mobs, do exactly the same thing to the target, it's the same code that is running. The only difference between mobs and players is that an hand is actually spawned and if it's killed the effects stop.

[Progressive-Psy]

Whiney wieners.
BGTSCC becoming the life of the player.
Friendships with people you'd never meet.
Ravial's lore knowledge.

[Invoker]

I have to mention Bigby's again for a third time.

Especially combined with Isaac's Greater Missile Storm.

The Bigby line of spells became unreliable, and lost much of its value. Having it simply allow a Reflex save would have been better.

IGMS is a horribly overrated spell, generally by inexperienced arcanists and non-mage players. You could remove it from the game, and change absolutely nothing for me. It's a high-end spell (top circle slot when metamagicked, useless when not), expending your resources and taking a full round. Almost every decent character can do better than that with their round, many of them even with part of a round. And then they can continue doing it.

Manyshot + DA

Having rolled up a toon that takes advantage of Manyshot/DA, I think the damage output is probably less than a F/FB/WM build. Especially considering that the big damage burst of Manyshot/DA builds is only in the initial flurry, and then your subsequent attacks in the round are considerably less stellar.

Having used a Desert Eagle to shoot people, I think the damage is probably less than connecting with a 6-foot-long broadsword swung by a very strong man. That's what you're saying. I can use a sword, and I have the strength to kill in one cut...but I'd still take the gun, even if I am a mediocre shot .

A Manyshot/DA build can land at least 6 death attacks per round (first flurry) from a distance, while moving around with wands of Dimension Door and using Stealth to relocate. Dealing damage in the same league of probably the biggest glass cannon of the game, whom however has to get to melee to deliver it, and does not force 6x "save or it's over" rolls per round isn't so sound as you think.

Said this, the game doesn't really have a balance problem on BGTSCC. Provided people can play, that is. PvP is another story, but also not so important to be honest.

[AC81]

That's it! Nerf Invoker!!!!!

[Hoihe]

I have to mention Bigby's again for a third time.

Especially combined with Isaac's Greater Missile Storm.

Low-level areas for newcomers. Many will go to the graveyard first and be crushed.

Encounters made more difficult by increasing monster stats rather than variety (Large HP Pools and the nonsense saving throws of high-level mobs)

I got to echo the last point.

Said this, the game doesn't really have a balance problem on BGTSCC. Provided people can play, that is. PvP is another story, but also not so important to be honest.

How do you define ability to play?

Pretty sure even the P&P-sanctity crowd will agree that if a GM saw a player gaming the mechanics in a P&P game, said GM will throw things at the player they can't mechanic their way out without undeniably using OOC knowledge, or acting out of character.

Whiney wieners.
BGTSCC becoming the life of the player.
Friendships with people you'd never meet.
Ravial's lore knowledge.

Let's not make this personal, lest others devolve to that level and join in the fun, aye?

[Arn]

A Manyshot/DA build can land at least 6 death attacks per round (first flurry) from a distance, while moving around with wands of Dimension Door and using Stealth to relocate. Dealing damage in the same league of probably the biggest glass cannon of the game, whom however has to get to melee to deliver it, and does not force 6x "save or it's over" rolls per round isn't so sound as you think.

Fair point on the "save or it's over" factor. This is not a rhetorical question: do you think most Manyshot/DA builds have a high enough INT modifier to make this truly broken/OP? I've noticed that a Death Attack DC of 24 does seem to trigger paralysis with some regularity against lizards and yetis in Cloud Peaks, but I still wouldn't try to take on the frost giants alone. If the paralysis does not trigger, the only thing saving your bacon is HiPS. So this may really be a discussion about whether HiPS is broken/OP.

I can use a sword, and I have the strength to kill in one cut...but I'd still take the gun, even if I am a mediocre shot .

Yes, while I certainly understand why you'd take a gun over a sword IRL, I can imagine quite a few instances in BG where I'd prefer a F/FB/WM build to a ranged build. After all, we're not talking about IRL. We're talking about BG game mechanics, which are so silly that we've devoted this entire thread to debating them. XD

Bigby 7 & 9, wether cast by players or mobs, do exactly the same thing to the target, it's the same code that is running. The only difference between mobs and players is that an hand is actually spawned and if it's killed the effects stop.

The Bigby line of spells became unreliable, and lost much of its value.

From personal experience, I have to agree with Invoker here. Maybe mobs just have higher DCs on their Bigby spells and higher saving throws?

[Invoker]

Fair point on the "save or it's over" factor. This is not a rhetorical question: do you think most Manyshot/DA builds have a high enough INT modifier to make this truly broken/OP? I've noticed that a Death Attack DC of 24 does seem to trigger paralysis with some regularity against lizards and yetis in Cloud Peaks, but I still wouldn't try to take on the frost giants alone. If the paralysis does not trigger, the only thing saving your bacon is HiPS. So this may really be a discussion about whether HiPS is broken/OP.

And you'd be entirely wrong in not trying it on the Giants. Because they would be paralyzed exactly as much as the Lizards...by rolling 1 (forcing at least 6 saves per round? That's a lot of "1"s in the making...). You talk about HiPS saving your bacon, but the truth is, the WM/FB you mentioned can't hide. What's saving his bacon?

Saying you "only" have stealth to protect yourself, is like saying a wizard "only" has spells to protect himself: it's your mechanic of choice. HiPS isn't broken. Manyshot/DA, which allows you to do what I described, is more powerful than intended. I don't advocate for any nerf, but that has nothing to do with being well aware of the fact.

Yes, while I certainly understand why you'd take a gun over a sword IRL, I can imagine quite a few instances in BG where I'd prefer a F/FB/WM build to a ranged build. After all, we're not talking about IRL. We're talking about BG game mechanics, which are so silly that we've devoted this entire thread to debating them. XD

When soloing, almost none. When in group, they both perform excellently, and it's a matter of taste. WM/FB is a very good base for a build, but archer assassins are markedly stronger since UMD nerf.

From personal experience, I have to agree with Invoker here. Maybe mobs just have higher DCs on their Bigby spells and higher saving throws?

The spells you are considering do not offer saving throws, the problem is the AI and/or pathing, as well as server subroutines or lag that I have come to believe can break the spell entirely.

If you cast the spell, and it connects, it works as before, with the exception the hand can be killed (which would be fine). The fact even a light breeze can make it stop in front of the target without doing anything, or that sweet words can convince it to release the most unlikely opponents in the most amazing of fashions make them generally not worth taking.

Mobs simply have the former version: when it's cast, you either resist the spell (mantle, SR), break line of sight, or overcome the unfavorable odds in the rolls, otherwise it connects.

How do you define ability to play?

Pretty sure even the P&P-sanctity crowd will agree that if a GM saw a player gaming the mechanics in a P&P game, said GM will throw things at the player they can't mechanic their way out without undeniably using OOC knowledge, or acting out of character.

It's the ability to overcome the odds following server rules, within the constraints of mechanics and what is allowed to players.

Pretty sure this isn't PnP, that you need to make a lot of concessions to that since DMs can't be around for you all the time (otherwise they'd make sure the encounters are constantly balanced for you), and that there is a lot of OOC knowledge that has nothing to do with mechanics, but that doesn't peeve you nearly as much.

I'll leave this here, since this kind of question has been popping up a lot in the last months:

Scrub Mentality: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

[chad878262]

Do I need to paste pictures of grass blades casting their shadow? Do I need to paste pictures of desert dunes casting their shadow? The description of the ability makes no distinction to the shape or dimension of the shadow. You are not even described to hide in the shadow, it is only enough that you are within the range of another shadow than your own. You basically just pop invisible, unless your hide skill roll is less than an observer's spot skill roll.

How something works is irrelevant. You might just as well demand a wizard to explain their fireball spell before they can use it. A good PnP DM simply knows how to counter the player shenanigans without the need to come up with arbitary limitations. For example a necromancer with a host of undead minions leaves that shadowdancing rogue surprisingly few valid targets for sneak attacks. And so on... and so on.

I'll do it for you...



Let's say your HiPSter needs to approach this dead tree based on a rumored tomb to be underneath it. He or she will need to walk a LONG way to get to that tree and there are no shadows cast until you get really close. Should a bunch of camel riding brigands approach you're telling me the rogue can HiPS before he get's within 10 feet of the shadow cast by the tree?

You do know how shadows work, right? Depending on the position of the sun they will be cast in different directions... At it's zenith shadows will be almost non existent except from large objects.

You speak of 'good' DMs, but I would say a player who tries to use the shadow of a blade of grass is rules lawyering at best. If the folks at WotC had wanted HiPS to have zero restrictions they wouldn't have had the shadow requirement or any other requirement. They left it ambiguous (as they do with many things, in every edition) because it should be left up to the DM. You argue the description makes no mention of shape or dimension and when this occurs in a D&D book it is left to the DM (or in a good group up to the DM and players) to decide how it should function. Regardless of this, as the picture shows you can certainly be in an area where shadows are few and far between.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

I'd just note here that no matter the saves, a manyshot assasin has a 26.5% chance to paralyze the target upon striking from stealth (19% for crossbow snipers), and this chance is much bigger against targets with low fort. saves (like wizards or other hipsters). On the other hand, Steadfast determination makes you invulnerable to it (unless you are dealing with weird INT based assasin build), and this feat is a part of the majority of warrior builds.

[Sun Wukong]

'Fighter 14/Weapon Master 7/Frenzied Berserker 6/Shadowdancer 3' works just fine though. With the fix on UMD consumable caster levels, while maxed out UMD is still a great perk with a mountain of gold, the ability to HiPS works rather well with or without epic stealth gear. While the build does require that 19 dexterity, it is not exactly at that great of a cost with the many +2 dexterity races of this server. You got Moon, Wild, Wood, and Dark Elves. You got those deep gnomes, and both breeds of halflings. Not to mention Tiefling and Air Genasi of the plane touched races. You will even have enough dexterity to make use of light armor to maintain your Evasion.



@Chad:

I'll do it for you...

Look at the sand.

You got these wave like formations of dark and light sand.

Could it be that there are two different types of sand in the picture? Who knows perhaps the sand with darker hue is somehow heavier than the sand with the lighter hue. Perhaps there was a layer of lighter coloured sand until it was mostly carried away by the desert winds. Does this make sense to you? Does it not?

Or how we approach it with little bit more seriousness: How about we take two jars of sand and compare side by side. One of the jars is filled with the sand from the darker areas, while the other is filled with sand from the lighter areas. Do you think there will be any difference between these two jars of sand? If I secretly swap the jars, will you be able to tell the difference? I bet the sand in those two jars will appear rather identical.

The difference in the sand hues is simply due to shadows cast by slight height differences.

This is the D&D description of the ability:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

The ability itself states as clearly as it can be: As long as our HiPSer is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow that is not her own, she can hide in plain sight. What is the difference between the shadows cast by a dry blade of grass, differences of terrain elevation, humps of baktrian camel, or the clouds hanging above the desert?

The description does not require a shadow of any notable intensity, shape, or size. The only thing it requires is a some sort of shadow beyond that of the user's own.

As for those camel riding brigands of yours, what makes you think they are not hiding in plain sight? Who knows, they might have some levels in Wilderness Stalker, Assassin, Shadowdancer, or Ranger among few other possibilities.

Thus a DM that wishes to impose asinine restrictions on shadows and spend time arguing whether valid shadows exists, is not being a good DM. I mean... Just consider this:

DM: You see a partially lit pathway leading-
Player with HiPSing Rogue: Tell me about the shadows!

DM: You enter a great hall-
Player with HiPSing Rogue: Tell me about the shadows!

DM: A trap sprungs at your feet-
Player with HiPSing Rogue: Tell me about the shadows!

DM: You see the glowing scales of-
Player with HiPSing Rogue: Tell me about the shadows!

[Arn]

And you'd be entirely wrong in not trying it on the Giants. Because they would be paralyzed exactly as much as the Lizards...by rolling 1 (forcing at least 6 saves per round? That's a lot of "1"s in the making...). You talk about HiPS saving your bacon, but the truth is, the WM/FB you mentioned can't hide. What's saving his bacon?

Saying you "only" have stealth to protect yourself, is like saying a wizard "only" has spells to protect himself: it's your mechanic of choice. HiPS isn't broken. Manyshot/DA, which allows you to do what I described, is more powerful than intended. I don't advocate for any nerf, but that has nothing to do with being well aware of the fact.

Yeah, frost giants are susceptible to DA paralysis, but not as badly as lizards and yetis. Lizards and yetis have to roll about 5 or higher to save, which I think is significantly worse than a frost giant's 1. Frosties also hit a lot harder than lizards or yetis. While you're waiting on HiPS cooldown, you're taking quite a beating while having no damage output, or at least that's been my experience. Meanwhile, a F/FB/WM build will certainly take a beating, but can at least take down the frost giant attacking him in the time that a Manyshot/DA build is waiting for HiPS to cooldown.

Anyways, the reason I originally compared Manyshot/DA to F/FB/WM was because I thought people were saying Manyshot/DA was unbalanced due to its damage output. I now realize they're mostly referring to the 6 chances to paralyze, which as I mentioned earlier is a fair point. But again, I don't think the paralysis is so powerful that it's unbalanced.

Come to think of it, we're basically agreeing on this bottom line. XD

If you cast the spell, and it connects, it works as before, with the exception the hand can be killed (which would be fine). The fact even a light breeze can make it stop in front of the target without doing anything, or that sweet words can convince it to release the most unlikely opponents in the most amazing of fashions make them generally not worth taking.

Yeah, I am not familiar with what factors into whether the spell connects or not. I am also not sure why the hand often stops in front of the target without doing anything. I am also not familiar with what you mean when you say sweet words can convince it to release opponents; is that an actual mechanic?

(unless you are dealing with weird INT based assasin build)

I've played one of those before! I think his Death Attack DC was 32 or 33? But he was not a Manyshot user, and his AB was no bueno.