Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Just for your information, have you thought about dropping spellcasting altogether? It doesn't seem to have a single aspect that pleases you, or one that you are willing to use with your 'RP' constraints in mind. At this point it is not the server that is broken, it is your expectations of it.

Honestly, you should just roll a Moon Elf Barbarian 20/Dragon Warrior 10 with Whirlwind Frenzy. You got tanky AC. Wait, you could just go for a Barbarian 20/Duelist 10 and fight in no armor.

But anyhow; Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 9/Assassin 8/Arcane Trickster 8 - Caster level of 25, BAB of 21, Sneak Attack of 8d6. You pop out of stealth, you deal some extra sneak attack damage. Some of your ranged touch spells will also deal more damage.

Sun Wukong wrote:At this point it is not the server that is broken, it is your expectations of it.

I've been telling Hoihe this for at least four years.

Deathgrowl wrote:

Sun Wukong wrote:At this point it is not the server that is broken, it is your expectations of it.

I've been telling Hoihe this for at least four years.

Not sure how it's an unreasonable expectation that a build that surpasses Sorcerer 6/Blood magus 4/EK 10/Dragon warrior 10 in every aspect except spell level and AB should be more viable. Yet, the very build it surpasses has been made non-viable.

Hoihe wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote:

Sun Wukong wrote:At this point it is not the server that is broken, it is your expectations of it.

I've been telling Hoihe this for at least four years.

Not sure how it's an unreasonable expectation that a build that surpasses Sorcerer 6/Blood magus 4/EK 10/Dragon warrior 10 in every aspect except spell level and AB should be more viable. Yet, the very build it surpasses has been made non-viable.

Define "surpasses in every way" First off, S6/BM4/EK10/DW10 is terrible. CL23 with no HiPS. What is Dragon Warrior even bringing to this build? Now, if you meant Dragon SLAYER, the CL is 29 and sorry, but your build does not surpass that... You have HiPS, but your CL is poor and your BAB/AB is poor. a CL29 S6/BM4/EK10/DS10 has BAB25 and wards that will rarely be removed outside of Breach/Mords. With Blood Component you can even get CL30 and be completely undispelable without mords/breach. On top of this, since you only need ~16 or 17 CHA you can reach solid STR. The only thing that would cause such a build to become junk is trying to make it an INT/DEX based build. It doesn't get INT to AC and you end up with too many stats that need to be 'maximized'. The reason what you want needs to be Wizard is for the INT synergy, but you then handicap it by requiring CHA for RP.

You can't add as many handicaps as your list has and expect a good build that can handle CR appropriate content solo. You need to manage your expectations if you are going to create a Tier 4 (or less) build. If you're going for RP then enjoy the RP, but don't expect Tier 2 performance unless your RP ALLOWS you to build a Tier 2 character.

[quote="chad878262"][/quote]


Behold: http://nwn2db.com/build/?126747

18/12/14/16/9/18 final stats.

AB of 33-35 depending on what I'm using.
AC of 45 max, usually lower.
Damage of 2d6 + 1.5 x 6 + 1d4 + 5 with a range of 18-20
23 Cl. 24 if blood component (which was not used due to RP reasons)
198 skill points
No evasion
No HiPS
No Expose Cheesiness (does have 1d4 piercing cold damage on every hit for cheese. Yay)

Proposed build:

10/23/10/21/8/14 final stats

AB of 29
AC of 45 absolute minimum to 61 maximum, with mean AC of 50 single, 48 multi.
Damage of 1d6 + 2 x 8 + 1d6 + 3 + (every 2nd round) 2d6 with a range of 15-20
13 cl
254 skill points
Has evasion
Has HiPS
Has Expose Cheesiness


First build could:
Solo Frost Giant King
Solo Lizard King thingy
Solo Chaos
Solo Durlag's Tower (including the dragon)
Solo Troll claws
Solo those blue ogre thingies
Solo the boareskyr encounter
Solo the big back dragon thingy in Yuan-ti area.
Solo ogre chieftain
Fight its way through Netherese maze to the Underdark to then go to the Illithid Hive's elder brain for screenshot to send to a DM for response.
Tentatively solo the fire giants (need to have an escape plan)


The second build which is objectively better in every way except access to 9th circle cannot even solo the chieftain.

How do I know it can't? My current build and the 2nd build are roughly identical at the current level and I can't even so much as walk into the Yuan Ti area without getting deleted.

The chieftan hits you with some kind of dispel and the second build doesn't have any of those stats without buffs which at CL13 are kind of like Assassin buffs. Nice to have but should not ever be counted on.

HiPS can help you land blows, but without sneak dice what's the point? In addition, being a stealth PC requires dedication to stealth, which takes away from other capabilities, especially when you refuse to wear any armor.

Have you considered just going SB14/D7/A9 and using UMD for spell scrolls? Since your low CL anyway, Assassin by RP still has a spellbook (and by rule can be considered an Avenger instead of Assassin, which is why good alignment is allowed). Yes, your spells are limited and you can't chose them, but with UMD you can use scrolls to compensate. Such a build is still not ideal for a sneak attacker since you likely only attack with one weapon as opposed to PTWF. However, it would still be far better than what you have and would make use of your desire to be a HiPS'ter who has spell casting and focuses on INT/DEX split. I think something similar was mentioned earlier in the thread...worth a shot.

Your new build is NOT objectively better than your old build BTW. Those CL24 (or 23 since you didn't use the ability the class you had gave to you) spells were giving you +5 EB weapon, +4 AB/Saves from Greater Heroism, +5 natural AC, 30 DR, +6 Armor AC, +4 to whatever stats you want, not to mention any other buffs you used or cloud spells or whatever. CL13 does not do all of that and, if you weren't using those buffs on the CL24 than I find it hard to believe you were soloing the FGK without some kind of other meta-gamey mechanics.

There are MANY ways to build a mid-range CL20-25 gish/sneak. You seem to not like any of them, but can't accept that building a very low CL gish type with low AB, but apparently high AC doesn't work...

I highly recommend you consider a 'simple' W5/EK9/A8/AT8 as I believe Sun Wukong suggested relatively early on. It's loads of fun to play and is very much able to alter it's playstyle based on what you're facing. For example undead and other crit immunes require you to use more summons/cloud spells because you won't do enough damage to them.

Works best as either an Archer (many shot) or PTWF so you'll want ~25 DEX (26 if you can get there). This will make INT a bit more difficult to achieve, but you should still be able to hit 20. A Moon Elf could start with a split of 10/18/10/16/8/14, for example and end up with 25 DEX (28 w/ +3 item) and 20 INT (w/ +4 item).

I have a Drow currently level 25 that uses that split (My favorite 2e elf was a Fighter/Mage/Thief I played when I was 12, don't judge). I can honestly say it is one of the most 'fun' characters to play since it gets to have fun with HiPS, can do really decent damage with death/sneak attack dice and, when sneak damage doesn't apply has a full arsenal of spells at his disposal.

For extra fun I got a couple of those Kukri's with on hit Blindness 25%. Between that and HiPS I feel he clears mobs quick enough, but make no mistake, this is a Tier 3 build. It is not on the same level as a well built Bladesinger or even a 'true' sneak attack build. But it is fun, useful and competent in PvE.

When did you have that first build? I recall it was prior to dispel fix, which meant that your caster level against dispels was way higher than what it actually was. Not to mention that the mobs on the server have been changed during the past six years.

Then on this topic, you have repeatedly stated how you have an arcanist that does not cast a single spell. Now, based on those ability scores, one of them is a sorcerer and the other is a wizard. Therefore, could it be possible that you do not have any idea about spellbook management or how to pick spells for an area?

Additionally, the difference between AB of 33 and 29 is that the former has 20% higher chance to land a hit than the latter. Your first build even today has somewhat high caster level, while your current build has caster level of 13. Basically any dispel a mob can strip your spells.

Soo... how about you list your actual classes so we can make you a better build.

well then. make that first build and CC me that screenshot of you in the maze

Sun Wukong wrote:I recall it was prior to dispel fix, which meant that your caster level against dispels was way higher than what it actually was.

This is a HUGE difference... If we are talking pre-dispel fix than we are still in the era of F12/W8/EK10 for Level 9 undispellable spells, BAB26, all the fighter feats ridiculousness. Of course your CL23/24 build was BETTER before the dispel fix! He had level 9 spells and only had to worry about mords/breach.

If you're lamenting that this is how it should still be, I'm afraid that is not going to happen. It has been discussed in QC (many times) and the general consensus is it's better this way. While dispels are an annoyance if you go for a CL~25 or less build, that annoyance is actually game balance. If you want to go get some really cool abilities, powers, feats, or what have you instead of continuing to enhance your CL you need to pay a price for that (in dispel weakness). There are still LOTS of ways to have a character that meets the majority of your RP requirements as has been shown. However, if you are dead set on the one you picked even after many different people have told you it will struggle then I hope you at least comprehend that you're repeating mistakes that have historically caused you much frustration and angst.

Even if we ignore the dispel immunity, how is it that my 45 AC was more than enough to do stuff with, while 50 AC has me torn down easily?


As for buffing - If I have spells, why should I use spells on imitating a fighter, rather than actually memorizing Dimensional Anchors, Sendings, Walls of Ice/Stone, Whisper Wind, Analyze Portal and countless other utility spells one can never prepare because they spend all their spells on imitating a fighter. The described second build gets 50 AC without a single spell, albeit with 26 AB due to CE. The described second build has 6 entire spell slots to actually use like a P&P wizard would, rather than a buffbot.

Were I to take Bladesinger, Song of Celerity itself would imply that one should use magic as utility/offensive, rather than waste it on mimicking a fighter.

As for balance - it doesn't hurt powerbuilders one bit. If the intent was to reduce cheese, it failed. Powerbuilders just skittered off to other pastures.

aaron22 wrote:well then. make that first build and CC me that screenshot of you in the maze

I can dig one up. I even had the comfort to RP stealing books and take screenshots!
Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:50 pm

Hoihe wrote:Even if we ignore the dispel immunity, how is it that my 45 AC was more than enough to do stuff with, while 50 AC has me torn down easily?

Mirrors, Displacement? AC is never to be considered in a vacuum and, even if we were 50 AC is never going to be 'torn down easily' I run around with my 43 AC Rogue build with Epic Dodge and rarely EVER take a hit, because I pop out of stealth, do a bunch of damage and then evade (if there is more than one enemy) until I the stealth timer hits zero. My Bladesinger has ~46 AC (49 when CE active) and never gets touched in Reaching Woods (especially with mirrors and displacement up). When I was playing my Thayan Knight he had consistent 50 AC and never got torn up even without any mirrors/displacement.

If you are getting torn up with 50 AC you are doing something else very wrong, especially if you ALSO have HiPS! Unless you are standing there for many rounds going toe to toe with CR25+ melee enemies surrounding you 50 AC is enough to be nearly immune to PvE melee enemies.

On the other hand, my first PC was a Ranger/Assassin who only had ~41 AC and no epic dodge. If he was not careful and tried to take on too many enemies with nowhere to escape and re-enter HiPS he absolutely got torn up even at level 30. If I rebuilt him today he'd have ~44 or 45 AC, do more damage thanks to some of the new server feats and would eventually have fun epic gear that was not available back then. He would do far better in epic content, but he would also max out at CL25 or 26 (depending on Assassin 8 or 9) and frankly that is a good thing. He should not get as much benefit as a full progression ranger as he took a non-ranger progression class.

Hoihe wrote: As for buffing - If I have spells, why should I use spells on imitating a fighter, rather than actually memorizing Dimensional Anchors, Sendings, Walls of Ice/Stone, Whisper Wind, Analyze Portal and countless other utility spells one can never prepare because they spend all their spells on imitating a fighter. The described second build gets 50 AC without a single spell, albeit with 26 AB due to CE. The described second build has 6 entire spell slots to actually use like a P&P wizard would, rather than a buffbot.

Because you are playing a gish. You are playing a build that is designed to mimic a fighter, with the capacity for utility at the cost of lowering your sustainability.

Sustain is the name of the game for soloing as a wizard in nwn2. There are several ways to do that:

1) Play with a party. They'll expect buffs (as they should, its your role to give them out especially when you have buffs only you can give out), so you'll still be buffing. Obviously not soloing though.

2) Summoning. Buffing is more economical for this, you can mostly use mass buffs with the single target ones thrown on only your summons. Ideally, you'll also have the heal skill just in-case. Its a fairly simple matter to build a summoner, and you still have plenty of spell-slots left over post-buffing routine for you to use. Thaumatuge is a nice investment that'll basically double your power if this is your method of sustain.

3) Shapeshifting. Its similar to gish gameplay, and its a lot simpler to play and gear for. Spell-slots don't get mixed up, and shapeshifting was changed to allow you to slide in and out of shape at will, so long as the polymorph (1 hour/CL) and shapechange (1 min/CL) are still in effect. You can also pick up a feat to replace Low BAB from wizard classes with M BAB. For a dedicated shapeshifting build, I recommend building them like a gish (6 Wizard/4 Blood Magus/10 Eldrich Knight/10 Dragonslayer) and picking up max/empower spell for your casting needs. You unshift to debuff or hit with a useful spell, then re-shift for a sustainable offense. This one will have more spell-slots than a gish, as you can just pour into INT. If you dedicate your build to it, you can hit pretty round numbers for AB and AC. This one is kinda the jack of all trades between Gishing and Casting if you build for it, less powerful on the gishing side if you dedicate yourself more towards casting.

4) Master Alchemist. This one is a little bit tricky, since you'll have to rest lots to stockpile up on Perfected Alchemist Flasks. I'd recommend paring this one with some none-dedicated summoning. I'd say this is the worst way of getting sustain, since you need to dedicate slots to fire immunity for yourself and your tank and you need to rest constantly to prepare a lot. If you face enemies with fire immunity or higher resistance, RiP you. I do not recommend it, but its technically still a possibility. Just a poorer one.

5) Gishing. Simple buff+fight, no real explanation needed. You toss in a spell here and there, as you should (if you built correctly) have enough spell-slots for both buffs and other misc spells. It'll have less spell-slots than the other options, since you go minimal int (15-18, depending on the items you feel comfortable with) and pour the rest into STR (ideally). A little into DEX, for instance with bladesinger you'd go 16 DEX to get Mith Breast Plate.

6) A combo platter. I recently did both Shapeshifting and Summoning with Wizard 5/Thaumatuge 5/Dragonslayer 10/Eldrich Knight 10. Its a very tight build, it leaves no wiggle room, and it takes up a lot of feats (2 epic spell foci, post-epic feats used on pre-epic feats. The works). But, its an excellent build when it comes to a sustained offensive. It does give up a lot though of spells and feats (no metamagic for one), compared to just doing one or the other.

Hoihe wrote:Even if we ignore the dispel immunity, how is it that my 45 AC was more than enough to do stuff with, while 50 AC has me torn down easily?

Mirror Image, Displacement, DR. AC is hardly a wizard's best or only defense.
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chad878262 wrote: You can't add as many handicaps as your list has and expect a good build that can handle CR appropriate content solo. You need to manage your expectations if you are going to create a Tier 4 (or less) build. If you're going for RP then enjoy the RP, but don't expect Tier 2 performance unless your RP ALLOWS you to build a Tier 2 character.

Been saying this, apparently its hard to conceive that this would be the case.

chad878262 wrote:Mirrors, Displacement? AC is never to be considered in a vacuum and, even if we were 50 AC is never going to be 'torn down easily'

not just that. One of my characters has basic AC 44 without mirrors, displacement or hips and I hardly ever get hit. My first flurry can land between 200-800 damage (avg prolly 500-600), so a lot of mobs don't even get to swing. How long you stand in front of a mob makes a huge difference to how many swings they will get on you. Also if you have d4 HPs and a con score of 10 you will feel like you are chewed up fast. its a small cup of health the mobs are drinking.

And where do you get 200-800 damage? Pretty sure even my rogue 20/ShadowDancer5/divine seeker 5 didn't do such levels of damage.

Valefort's Mealir does 30 damage per hit, and lands maybe 3 / round. He has nowhere 200 damage per hit and it's Valefort's character.

Evading rarely works with how the walkmesh is funny, with how you cannot use tumble to cross areas occupied by NPCs, and also the fact that your party needs a tank. And also, if you use your HiPs to evade, you lose its use to dodge dispells.

For sustain -

Why did my rogue 20/shadowDancer 5/divine seeker 5 have permanent sustainability and could do almost literally everything better than any wizard could ever hope for - except PvP.

The only thing wizard does better is avoiding DM trouble by having utility spells. Utility spells which they cannot memorize because they need to buff people and then afk. Or utility spells the DMs rule "don't work according to description because it trivializes an issue."

Wizards - Either you mimic a fighter, be a buffbot to either your own summon or another or be useless.

How to solve being useless? Play Gandalf-style, or Song of Celerity style. But that's unbalanced, because people can use it to powerbuild. So, that doesn't work.

And what could have worked was made less effective by virtue of scaling AC/AB of creatures. Remember 45 AC used to be enough that you only got hit on a natural 20 for many enemies.


As for damage and HP soak - I'll concede there's a point. But even when I had 300+ HP I bailed the moment I lost HP beyond what the active tank of my regen cape can sustain in a minute.


As for RP allowing - once again, scaling AC/AB and dispel "fix" - and also the inflated HPs (Deal 100+ damage in a spell? Might as well deal none, since a random person with a sword does more damage than that in equal time.) make even RP that could theoretically allow powerful builds end up becoming useless.

Hoihe wrote:And where do you get 200-800 damage? Pretty sure even my rogue 20/ShadowDancer5/divine seeker 5 didn't do such levels of damage.

Lots of builds can do over 200 damage per round, there are a few that can do 800 per round... Every competent sneak attack based build does at least 200 in the first flurry... Mine does ~300 in the first flurry and another ~50-80 or so if he sticks around to keep attacking after that initial 2 seconds. Your R20/SD5/DS5 has 12d6 sneak dice unless you took Improved Sneak Attack Epic feats. Thus if you are PTWF then you do an average of ~168 sneak damage in the first flurry plus any Weapon, STR, EB or any other bonus damage. My guess is that does in fact hit 200 or higher in the first 2 second flurry...Unless you didn't go PTWF and/or gimped your Attack Bonus to where you don't actually land all your attacks out of stealth.

Hoihe wrote:Valefort's Mealir does 30 damage per hit, and lands maybe 3 / round. He has nowhere 200 damage per hit and it's Valefort's character.

Has Valefort ever claimed Mealir is a powerbuild (or even a strong build)? Also, Mealir can survive pretty much anywhere, he is built and played quite defensively so 30 damage per hit is fine, unlikely his opponents will hit him all that much. Just because Valefort can make something that does insane damage doesn't mean he builds his PC that way. He is a role player too.

Hoihe wrote:Evading rarely works with how the walkmesh is funny, with how you cannot use tumble to cross areas occupied by NPCs, and also the fact that your party needs a tank. And also, if you use your HiPs to evade, you lose its use to dodge dispells.

Say what now?

Hoihe wrote:Why did my rogue 20/shadowDancer 5/divine seeker 5 have permanent sustainability and could do almost literally everything better than any wizard could ever hope for - except PvP.

Because you are not very good at (or refuse to) playing a wizard correctly. You fill up slots with spells that only have SOME value in RP/DM Events on the off chance some DM is going to stroll by and happen to cater an event to the one spell for which your PC is the only wizard on faerun who has memorized (or even scribed the spell). If you set limitations like "does not use summons, does not use cloud spells, does not use polymorph/shapechange, does not use rnd/level or minute/level buffs, does not use enchantment/domination spells" you have effectively ruined your spell economy. So yeah, you are far weaker and less sustainable...cuz you're imposing limitations that take away many things that make wizards powerful and ALL of the things that make them sustainable!

Hoihe wrote:The only thing wizard does better is avoiding DM trouble by having utility spells. Utility spells which they cannot memorize because they need to buff people and then afk. Or utility spells the DMs rule "don't work according to description because it trivializes an issue."

They get a lot of spells... Like ~55 spells. What is wrong with setting aside 4-5 for potential RP spells, 4-5 for OMG I need to kill that thing NOW spells and the other ~45 for sustainability (buffs, summons, clouds, etc.)? Just because you refuse to do it doesn't mean others are doing it wrong. In fact, since pretty much everyone else agrees that is the right way to do it, maybe you should consider the possibility.

Tarent Nefzen is a W20/MA5/T5 and a lot of his spell slots are dedicated to creating popular wands and elixirs. However, he can still Gate in an Omnimental or slap someone with Epic Greater Ruin, etc... He can still provide buffs, he's still a WIZARD!

Hoihe wrote:Wizards - Either you mimic a fighter, be a buffbot to either your own summon or another or be useless.

Wrong. You can also use cloud spells or you can dominate other enemies and set them against their buddies or go ethereal, head to their leader and take the head of the snake instead of messing with the body. Wizards control the ether of reality mate, why would they trouble themselves with scrubs?

Oh, right, cuz they need to level... Well, they can do that too and, while Fighter mimicry works as does buffbot/summons, there are other ways as well. You seem to simply want them to have all the Wizard power with the sustainability of a warlock. Wait, they can do that too with reserve feats. They may be slow, but if you want unlimited spells we got 'em! And hey, you can even add in Rogue, SD and AT levels to apply sneak damage to your invisible needles.

Hoihe wrote:How to solve being useless? Play Gandalf-style, or Song of Celerity style. But that's unbalanced, because people can use it to powerbuild. So, that doesn't work.

Song of Celerity works just fine... other than the DC's that were recently reported, but as I said in that thread...The DCs are supposed to be the same. Besides, I gave you a Bladesinger build, your response was that Bladesinger is not acceptable due to RP.

Hoihe wrote:And what could have worked was made less effective by virtue of scaling AC/AB of creatures. Remember 45 AC used to be enough that you only got hit on a natural 20 for many enemies.

You do realize that if a CR23 area is scaling to CR24 or 25 you have the option to move to a CR21 area, right? In addition, scaling enemies do not gain +5 AB or anything. If 45 AC is good for CR23, it's only going to be marginally worse in CR24 or 25 of the same area. Instead of a natural 20 now they need a 19 or 20 (maybe 18-20). Still fine if you don't let yourself get mobbed.

Hoihe wrote:As for damage and HP soak - I'll concede there's a point. But even when I had 300+ HP I bailed the moment I lost HP beyond what the active tank of my regen cape can sustain in a minute.

That's your call... I've watched Invoker and many other players allow their tanks HP to get down to about a quarter and never bail, because they knew if they really needed to they could heal up, and it was better to try and take the enemy down rather than run and allow the enemy to attack without counter.

Hoihe wrote:As for RP allowing - once again, scaling AC/AB and dispel "fix" - and also the inflated HPs (Deal 100+ damage in a spell? Might as well deal none, since a random person with a sword does more damage than that in equal time.) make even RP that could theoretically allow powerful builds end up becoming useless.

Why do you put "fix" in quotes? It works as per PnP and as it was STATED to work in NWN2 manual/documentation. It is the very definition of a fix since how it originally worked was counter to the documented functionality. If you want to talk about mob HPs and spells we can do that... Not sure it is on the topic of this thread though and would require a bit more thorough examination of the server, class balance, PvE balance. Regardless how far we depower the server though, there is ALWAYS a way to build a combination that is too weak to handle. Is the answer going to be to just keep reducing difficulty?

To be honest I assume if the server was easy enough to make you happy, Hoihe that we would have a lot of other players leave due to the challenge being gone. On top of this, history shows there is a pretty good chance you will find a way to handicap a build enough to make the lesser difficulty still too much for that PC...and then lament how the server doesn't support RP builds.