Game Balance

[ARHicks00]

Now that Cleric's has been given the Nerf bat, perhaps we should look into Buffing up Warpriest, as it currently stands, it is a utterly useless class with a rather expensive feat and Skills tax and in returns it gives very little. I Suggest buffing up their Capstone, removing the speed penalty, giving a bit of a damage boost to Cleric and party, Raising Cater level from 5/10 to 8/10 and removing the skills entry as it is a bit punishing for Clerics.

If you're going to take, why not give in return?

Fist of the Scarce Flame class needs a 10/10 instead of 8/10 considering you need 6 levels of monk to make a decent cleric/monk PrC build.

Sure? Post a more constructive suggestion i guess?

I mean the most you can get with 10 Scarce Flame levels and 6 monks for 16 monk levels towards damage and fast movement. Nothing else stacks. You need 4 levels of cleric and and 10 levels of Hospitaler get extra feats as the requirements to spellcast and fight are through the roof. Hospitaler, even without the nerf, is 7/10. So that is a total of 11 spellcasting levels missing. Practice Spellcaster only grants you 4 for CL of 23.

I can break it down for you Growl.

- No item level restrictions.
- We can mule thus an alt or new main can be decked with epic gear
- Up to level 21 most mobs are rather weak, they aren't dynamic enough as an encounter ((see earlier post)
- Epic mobs melt when they meat a group of 4 people with only bosses being a challenge ((aka heal pots).
- Summons have been buffed in such a way that any mage can solo pretty much everything up to 21 with out a problem.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While Kaeldrins pack is an imbalanced mess , it is no different with classes on the server.
Just look a dragon druid/ hell fire warlock/ anything with strength bard in it and mages in general.

Which brings me to this question: Why combat insight was nerfed?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to hear an argument from you Growl why the 3/20 rule is something that should exist in D&D on a RP server.

To an extend, this is what I talking about in my previous post.

[Svabodnik]

Since I meant to get back to the CL issue,

[...]I agree with the idea that your caster level should be depended on how many levels you actually have in a caster class , however in practice it doesn't work so well. The amount of caster NPC'S on this server is ridiculous ,each one of them knows how to dispel you. In fact it's the first thing all of them do, spam dispel and die after it. At some point you find more mages than melee fighters when fighting NCPs.[...]

Please see:

[...]- More diversity amongst mobs. When you start building a character on this server you pretty much know what is there and how to deal with it. The tactics are pretty straight forward since you usually have to take 2-3 type of mobs into account which aren't designed around being utterly annoying.
Let's take the gnoll cave for example and say we add 3 new type of gnolls.

1: One gnoll that uses haste on other gnolls and other buff spells
2: A gnoll that uses blind strike/knock down etc.
3: Just another heavy hitter.

Now increase the spawn amount and you will force people to group up as the dungeon exploits the weakness that even power builds have.[...]

And then add 4: A gnoll that uses Dispel Magic. This is exactly having the dungeon exploit weaknesses of powerbuilds. You don't get any more spells per day past CL 20 for classes, so without added reasons to want to have a higher CL aside from just more duration (which for minute-long buffs will already be at 40 min Extended), there would be no reason for already powerful self-buffers (gishes, FVS, CoDzillas) to progress further.

Of course, having a higher than 20 CL will also add to spell DCs, but that's typically of secondary importance to an untouchable death-dealing buffball. With a free 10 levels to pursue more martial ability, such will become all the more untouchable and all the more death-dealy. However, on this server you become immune to Lesser Dispel at CL 15, regular Dispel at CL 25, and Greater Dispel at CL 30, incentivizing sticking to full caster progression for even those that don't care for millenia-long durations or DCs, as it will make their self-buffs more resilient.

This is also why 8/10 CL progression for Sacred Fist is fine. There is no definite reason for why one must have more that 3 levels of monk for something like a Monk 3/Cleric 17/SF 10 split, which can get 29 CL already. One more and it's undispellable by anything short of a Mord's. Even so, Monk 6/Cleric 14/SF 10 is already immune to regular Dispel Magic at CL 26. Only taking 3 Monk/7 SF and getting full CL is almost just as good already, and there are plenty of PRCs that peter out in their later levels for more optimal builds anyways.


Regarding Kaedrin's, sure it has some additions that I don't think would upset server balance (i.e. Divine Vigor: temp HP and speed bonus for Turn Undead uses), but it also has certain options that would make already powerful builds all the more so (Battle Dancer: +2 on attack rolls for Bards, a class few would find wanting). To note, the server already has several things not found in Kaedrin's - class reworks like Barbarian, classes/PRCs such as Man at Arms or Archmage, feat lines such as Shield Bash, and custom spells out the wazoo. These things will all have to be considered rather than just trying to mash two systems together haphazardly.

Sure, it can be said that true balance is impossible in this genre. However, just because we can't get "Rock, Paper, Scissors" doesn't mean we have to be satisfied with "Rock, Paper, Scissors, Nuclear Bomb".

[ARHicks00]

This is also why 8/10 CL progression for Sacred Fist is fine. There is no definite reason for why one must have more that 3 levels of monk for something like a Monk 3/Cleric 17/SF 10 split, which can get 29 CL already. One more and it's undispellable by anything short of a Mord's. Even so, Monk 6/Cleric 14/SF 10 is already immune to regular Dispel Magic at CL 26. Only taking 3 Monk/7 SF and getting full CL is almost just as good already, and there are plenty of PRCs that peter out in their later levels for more optimal builds anyways.


Regarding Kaedrin's, sure it has some additions that I don't think would upset server balance (i.e. Divine Vigor: temp HP and speed bonus for Turn Undead uses), but it also has certain options that would make already powerful builds all the more so (Battle Dancer: +2 on attack rolls for Bards, a class few would find wanting). To note, the server already has several things not found in Kaedrin's - class reworks like Barbarian, classes/PRCs such as Man at Arms or Archmage, feat lines such as Shield Bash, and custom spells out the wazoo. These things will all have to be considered rather than just trying to mash two systems together haphazardly.

Sure, it can be said that true balance is impossible in this genre. However, just because we can't get "Rock, Paper, Scissors" doesn't mean we have to be satisfied with "Rock, Paper, Scissors, Nuclear Bomb".

1. Your explanation is not a good one. Scarce Flame is 8/10 because it was created for a level 20 game that's CR rating stayed 15 and below. The reality is, this PrC along with many others are suppose to have 20 levels to them, but Obisidian did not add epic level content for PrCs. If Scarce Flame had 20 PrC levels then I would be in agreement with 8/10, but since it does not it just adds to bad spellcasting and liability. You are playing more of a gimp monk or unarmed cleroc then a true blind of both. Hell, your suggestion which suggest more cleric levels means you benefit less of monk. There is no rule saying you have to get more cleric levels to compensate for the pack of CL nor are there rules saying you need more monk levels to compensate for the lack of monk benefits.

My suggestion would allow a Scarce Flame build to be above lesser dispell, but still be valuable to a grester dispell. I noted level 6 of monk works because of the damage and feats because you will get 16 levels worth while being a capable spellcaster instead of the 3 levels of monk for 13 levels woth subpar damage. Your suggestion also pigeonhole as it is like you are saying if you want more spellcasting potential then get more clerics, which defeats the purpose of Monk/Cleric blend PrC.

That is like an Eldritch Knight build with more Wizard levels then EK as it kind of defeats the purpose of a spellblade build. I mean you can build how you want, but specific PrC were created with either specific themes, roles, or purposes in mind. Again what you suggestion does fulfill any if that.

2. Kaedrin's pick improved on what was broke or gave more option. Battle Dancer isn't broke as someone who played a Bard/Cleric/Canaith Lyricist/Stormsinger. It is a build that gets 26 Cleric CL levels, Bard Skills, Battle Dancer, Song of Heart, All bard song except Song of Heroes. Battle Dancer just adds AB, which is no different from a fighter's weapon master feats. Barbarians, Bards, and Fighters have little trouble by pass AC below 70 with the right equipment. Battle Dancer is redundant for a class that can already get a AB, but that does not mean Battle Dancer should not be added. Not to mention this server that has spells that stop a character hitting 50% of time or cause him to fumble his weapon, God forbid we give a bard +2 to hit you.

For me, a nerf or the reason for not adding content should be based on whether it allows said player to one shot everything on the server. It should not be nerf or denied because it gives a person +2 more to increase it's chance to hit you.

FYI, the build I just mentioned often found itself taking a dirt nap because despite it's advantages, it played more like a Bard since Strength bards and Strength Clerics spells are used for the same purposes.

3. Why the heck are trying to strive for "Rock, paper, Scissors." This isn't Guild Wars or WoW. Again there is no system of balance in DnD. Hell DnD canon history has always been about power struggles and power struggles collapsing. From mortals to Gods. You are asking for balance in a game were a party of misfits can topple an evil mage with magic powers that make him a demi-god in some cases has a pet evil red dragon that he is in control of. If that does not spell it out for you then nothing will.

[Svabodnik]

1. I really hope that we're talking about the same thing, because as far as I know, there are no Scarce Flames on the server. Regardless, the first character I got to 30 on this server was a Sacred Fist build. Specifically, a STR-based 16 Monk/4 Paladin/10 SF. You seem to forget that Sacred Fist is a full BAB PRC with reasonably high spell progression which synergizes amazingly well with Monk. It's not just self-buff clerics who want the versatility of some monk abilities that it benefits.

There ought to be a give-and-take between the martial ability of a character and their spellcasting ability. The considerations regarding CL helped limit the potential cheese of the Mnk/Pally/SF build I mentioned, since while it was possible to get the full Bull's Strenght + Righteous Fury +8 STR bonus running for an ideal 24 minutes, it was at CL 12, and was easily stripped by enemies. Still, Sacred Flames is a fantastic ability whose damage output rivals EDM, without the need to build for CHA.

As was mentioned before, buffs or nerfs to a single class or ability don't exist in a vacuum - they must be considered as a gear within the whole clockwork of a system. Being a monk/cleric split doesn't mean that at the end you're both a fantastic monk and a fantastic cleric. You will be mediocre or sub-par when compared to either, but the combination of the two can result in a superb synergy. With WIS to AC, Evasion, bonus Dodge bonuses from SF, and a base Flurry of Blows that comfortably overshadows a heavy mace/heavy shield, taking Monk/SF will, combined with the buffs from Cleric, will elevate the C side of a CoDzilla build at minimal loss.


2: This is a bit of a jumbled mess, and I'm not sure what to address at all. Kaedrin's and BGtSCC's character creation systems are two different branches that have evolved from NWN2. Things that may be good in one may not carry over all that well to the other. I can't be certain how well your cleric/bard performed in the former, but it seems to fall in line with your complaints in regards to the predominantly-Fighter build on this server. I would recommend following Deathgrowl's suggestion in either case.

Also, Blind Fight is a thing.


3. Please look up "metaphor" in your local dictionary. What I meant to imply is that NWN2 may possibly never have "perfect balance" between various level, feat, or spell options, where any single option can be as satisfactory as the next (such as a game where you have a 1/3 chance of winning, 1/3 chance of tying, and 1/3 chance of losing, ala "R,P,S"). However, it can still have options that are fun and satisfying whether or not you want to to play it for a technical and skill-based contest against a set challenge, a fun Elfland-RP chatroom, and any combination in between. Balancing applies to the former in the having-fun cuddlepile.


4. Bonus round, "drinking game, one shot per ".

[ARHicks00]

1. I really hope that we're talking about the same thing, because as far as I know, there are no Scarce Flames on the server. Regardless, the first character I got to 30 on this server was a Sacred Fist build. Specifically, a STR-based 16 Monk/4 Paladin/10 SF. You seem to forget that Sacred Fist is a full BAB PRC with reasonably high spell progression which synergizes amazingly well with Monk. It's not just self-buff clerics who want the versatility of some monk abilities that it benefits.

Sorry got the name wrong, but yes. It's gets a High BAB and 8/10 spell progression, which is MINOR compared to the fact you lose your epic bonus since this class does not have a PrC epic level 20 progression. In addition this is a level 30 server meaning because we got beyond level 30, there is no way to compensate for the lack of PrC epic level progression. In order to do this, you need to choose class that closely makes up for what you are lacking. The only part it synergize with the monk in is fast movement and damage, but without the full 20 level of PrC, you are at best getting 13 to 16. Anymore than that and you're just playing a monk minor cleric abilities (and very easily dispellable) and there is no where in description that says this class is suppose to be a minor cleric or major cleric. The class was SPECIFICALLY MADE to be a MONK/CLERIC blend. Mind you isn't even the strongest PRC in the game. Most of the Wizard/Sorcerers PrCs are the strong and don't get any real nerfs.

Also, I don't know why people flip out over the High BAB progression. If It had PrC 20 like the Templar PrC in Dalelands, I could understand the need to leave it at 8/10 (or a 18/20 in this case), but that isn't the case. Need I remind you, even without the High BAB, it's a cleric build that can cast Divine Power for a full BAB progression. DID ANYONE TAKE THIS IN CONSIDERATION when they thought what should be done with the class? I mean you can take the full progression off of Warpriest, it will be any less useless of a PrC then it already is. Same applies here to SF because of it's limit level progression. However, thanks to Divine Power, full progression is not needed.

Again, this up to the DMs and builders and we already know how they feel about it. This topic asking how people like myself feel about nerfs. You can freely argue about why something is wrong and should stay the way it is, but you'd missing the point of the topic and underminding people's opinion. Again, the topic is about why people like myself don't like nerfs and how it affect content. I'm voicing my opinion.

There ought to be a give-and-take between the martial ability of a character and their spellcasting ability. The considerations regarding CL helped limit the potential cheese of the Mnk/Pally/SF build I mentioned, since while it was possible to get the full Bull's Strenght + Righteous Fury +8 STR bonus running for an ideal 24 minutes, it was at CL 12, and was easily stripped by enemies. Still, Sacred Flames is a fantastic ability whose damage output rivals EDM, without the need to build for CHA.

Um...no, but okay. I'll leave the dps thing alone as that is for another topic. Anyway, you can make a Monk/Pally/SF, Monk/FS/SF, Monk/Cleric/SF, or EDM SF build, but it doesn't matter because you can dispel it, which means you aren't much of a cleric, but just a monk who wasted his time buffing up to get bodied by a mage enemy NPC. If I want to play a character who relies more on martials than spells then I'll just play a pure monk. If I play a SF, it is with the intent of being versatile, being able to heal and frontline while at same time playing using a unique style.

Again, as I said before, why are you worried about what a person builds? The obsession of what someone is making is no one's business. Not yours or mine. One of the reasons we have imbalance IN MY OPINION is due to people worrying about what someone else is building instead of focusing on their own builds and how they play. Everyone want to metagame someone else game instead of playing their own. Part of the reason why I stopped playing WoW years ago.

As was mentioned before, buffs or nerfs to a single class or ability don't exist in a vacuum - they must be considered as a gear within the whole clockwork of a system. Being a monk/cleric split doesn't mean that at the end you're both a fantastic monk and a fantastic cleric. You will be mediocre or sub-par when compared to either, but the combination of the two can result in a superb synergy. With WIS to AC, Evasion, bonus Dodge bonuses from SF, and a base Flurry of Blows that comfortably overshadows a heavy mace/heavy shield, taking Monk/SF will, combined with the buffs from Cleric, will elevate the C side of a CoDzilla build at minimal loss.

See above about who the topic for. Buffs and nerfs are put in attempt to create balance, which never works. It breaks the game, it get complaints, and eventually classes are unnerfed, which made nerfing the class in the first place pointless.

I said SF was create specifically to be a monk/cleric blend class and there no reason for 8/10 because it lacks a PrC epic level 20 progression. It just contributes to a low CL in already imbalance game system that favors Wizards/Sorcerer. Again, to compensate for the lack of PrC level characters have to up the Monk levels or pick class that have less CL penalities to it.

2: This is a bit of a jumbled mess, and I'm not sure what to address at all. Kaedrin's and BGtSCC's character creation systems are two different branches that have evolved from NWN2. Things that may be good in one may not carry over all that well to the other. I can't be certain how well your cleric/bard performed in the former, but it seems to fall in line with your complaints in regards to the predominantly-Fighter build on this server. I would recommend following Deathgrowl's suggestion in either case.

Also, Blind Fight is a thing.

What this doesn't make any sense consider both my pure fighter build and cleric/bard build have blind fight. I'm not sure if you being sarcastic or daft. My fighter build gets killed largely due to high ab/heavy damage and level 6 to 9 spells, which something I mention in my last post, which is very readable. Fighters are notorious for being bad at saves and ACs are pretty limited unless you gravitate towards a cookie-cutter builds. To suggest so would prove my point about how nerfs and super challenging quest have killed RP. RP aspect of the dungeons died when both those elements were introduced instead of leaving it be.

3. Please look up "metaphor" in your local dictionary. What I meant to imply is that NWN2 may possibly never have "perfect balance" between various level, feat, or spell options, where any single option can be as satisfactory as the next (such as a game where you have a 1/3 chance of winning, 1/3 chance of tying, and 1/3 chance of losing, ala "R,P,S"). However, it can still have options that are fun and satisfying whether or not you want to to play it for a technical and skill-based contest against a set challenge, a fun Elfland-RP chatroom, and any combination in between. Balancing applies to the former in the having-fun cuddlepile.

If I make a post similar to this, I get message from the DM telling to change my post. Yet the person who says this doesn't get an equal message in PMs, yet I'm ask to be civil when the other poster refuse to do otherwise. Literally, this would be part I would have post at the very start and chewed your head off with, but I showing how civil I can be. As I said before, as other have said, and as Gary Gygax has said that DnD will never balance. Talks of balance in a DnD game is like convincing Fox News to tell the truth. It's not just not going to happen.

[Svabodnik]

[...]The class was SPECIFICALLY MADE to be a MONK/CLERIC blend.[...]

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't think I ever saw that in the class description. It's a PRC that gives a very specific amount of abilities, for a very specific amount of levels, after meeting a very specific amount of prerequisites, all of which are explained in detail both on the Wiki and in-game. The "epic bonuses" it for some reason "must have" have likely never been considered in the role it currently plays on this server. In its current state, it works quite well in extending monk abilities, divine caster levels, and granting high BAB progression, in addition to providing a brief but very effective damage buff, for the levels that it can be taken.

That's all there is to it. Perhaps in Dalelands or where-ever it is you're more familiar with the class had served a different purpose. I brought up my monk/pally/SF specifically because of the BAB progression aspect, since for a monk being able to scale with a higher chance to hit on more of their flurry is a fantastic deal, due to their natural 3/4 progression. Additional, if inconsistent, buffing ability was a neat side-benefit, in my case. It also works very well with clerics in their current state, who may want to expand on a quick monk dip for WIS to AC and Evasion and get a sliver more benefit from such an option. If you have a different vision of what it ought to provide, such must be compared and contrasted to what it currently does, and how such changes may disseminate into other approaches of play on the server.

[...]Again, as I said before, why are you worried about what a person builds? The obsession of what someone is making is no one's business. Not yours or mine. One of the reasons we have imbalance IN MY OPINION is due to people worrying about what someone else is building instead of focusing on their own builds and how they play. Everyone want to metagame someone else game instead of playing their own.[...]

As soon as we log into the server, the rules you and I play under become the same. This is a discussion about alterations to such rules, which will also affect everyone else who logs into the server. These rules correspond to a complex game, where Elfland RP meets the struggle of characters against a hostile environment. For someone who enjoys the failures and successes in said struggle against said hostile environment, the rules under which you, I, and everyone else plays becomes a point of interest. The same character options available to everyone else are also available to me, and as such, they personally interest me. Especially in how they will play into my struggle against the aforementioned hostile environment.

[Steve]

Anymore than that and you're just playing a monk minor cleric abilities (and very easily dispellable) and there is no where in description that says this class is suppose to be a minor cleric or major cleric. [Sacred Fist] was SPECIFICALLY MADE to be a MONK/CLERIC blend. Mind you isn't even the strongest PRC in the game. Most of the Wizard/Sorcerers PrCs are the strong and don't get any real nerfs.

I disagree. Sacred Fist is far more powerful than you're alluding to, especially when you factor in other aspects/combinations.. Which you must do, because if it can be built, then it isn't an issue Balancers can ignore.

For example:
Cleric 7 / Sacred Fist 10 / Monk 3 / Hierophant 10

CL 32 w/ Spellpower
DC 30 + Spell Level for Necromancy (w/ Gift of the Diety)
Hierophant Feats
Epic Spell Vampiric Feast
Sacred Fist (Sacred Flames 21 dmg / Monk perks (2d6 unarmed dmg; 40% movement)
3 / per Rest Stunning Fist 36 DC (w/ WIS +4 item)

Now with the Divine Power changes, this build still gets 5 APR. But it will ruin 95% on Content on BGTSCC, and given the chance to Buff, will destroy in PvP as well.

The cherry on top being the story/RP/social aspect of the build.

[ARHicks00]

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't think I ever saw that in the class description. It's a PRC that gives a very specific amount of abilities, for a very specific amount of levels, after meeting a very specific amount of prerequisites, all of which are explained in detail both on the Wiki and in-game. The "epic bonuses" it for some reason "must have" have likely never been considered in the role it currently plays on this server. In its current state, it works quite well in extending monk abilities, divine caster levels, and granting high BAB progression, in addition to providing a brief but very effective damage buff, for the levels that it can be taken.

No there isn't and I've already explain why it utterly fails so no reason to go in circles. If you going to site difference in opinion there is no reason why you had to explain something you already noted in the last post. Seem redundant to explain yourself again when you know you are right, wouldn't you agree? As for the description, it pretty much spells out that it is suppose to a monk/cleric blend, but without additional PrC levels, it falls short for reason I explain in another post.

I will say again, however, that the PrC 20 doesn't apply to SF, but the other classes to as it makes Blackguard useless outside of EDM and high saves. Majority of PrC are either useless (Warpriest and SF) or not used fully. (Weapon Master or Blackguards) This literally speaks volume about how Obisidian messed up. And the impact can be seen as we use only about 1/3rd of a PrC's total level most of the time to 2/3rd of PrC level build in the case of weapon master build. Rarely do people go the 3/3rds of PrC levels. On some level, we have come to terms the PrCs are useless beyond a certain level. (and without the PrC 20 progression to boot)

That's all there is to it.

Nope and moving on since you just want to see things your way, I will let you continue to see through those rose-colored lens and not argue it.

Perhaps in Dalelands or where-ever it is you're more familiar with the class had served a different purpose.

Been on several servers, you haven't. If you did, you'll find that wasn't just Dalelands as I mentioned other servers made classes changes too. Again no point in going further in this because you don't much experience outside of Baldur's gate.

I brought up my monk/pally/SF specifically because of the BAB progression aspect,

Once again, not arguing builds. Moving on. You're going in circles, man.

As soon as we log into the server, the rules you and I play under become the same.

Which has nothing to do with what I was saying. Have a good day sir.

Jesus Tap-dancing Christ!

[ARHicks00]

For example:
Cleric 7 / Sacred Fist 10 / Monk 3 / Hierophant 10

1. Seen this build on NWN2 DB. (or at least a build similar to it)

2. Thanks for proving the point of my cookie cutter rant. It seem whenever we get into these discussions, I'm force to ignore post that completely fly off the rails because the poster feels the need to feed me not only a cookie cutter build, but debunk topic and undermind various opinions and outlooks. This board never ceases to put cynical smile on my face. By no means do I mean this as an insult, but if you want me to give your post consideration then try to be more empathic instead being quick to be apathetic towards what you perceive as 'wanting hands out' and giving 'bootstrap lectures'.

These are just opinions and why people like myself feel that way.

[Svabodnik]

[...]4. Bonus round, "drinking game, one shot per ".[...]

Rest in peace sweet liver, I hardly knew ye.

[ARHicks00]

[...]4. Bonus round, "drinking game, one shot per ".[...]

Rest in peace sweet liver, I hardly knew ye.

So because you posted, that was suppose to be end of the argument and because the post prolong after your initial "I said so" argument, you have to take a drink? Well, okay that bring much narrows down cynicism of other people's opinions. It's not that serious friend.

[Planehopper]

Alright, alright.. either get this back on topic or just quit posting in it. No one cares to read your personal animosity.

We try to be generous in topics such as these. Please don't make this more than it needs to be.

Thanks

[ARHicks00]

Alright, alright.. either get this back on topic or just quit posting in it. No one cares to read your personal animosity.

We try to be generous in topics such as these. Please don't make this more than it needs to be.

Thanks

Agreed. I kept saying what topic is about in a couple of my post. Anyway, maybe someday we can either tinker existing classes/PrCs to be better, add more content to give more options to players, and unnerf some class.

I would love to see that and have been asking for it for a while, but right now the BG staff are set in their ways so we won't be seeing that change anytime soon.

[Wandering_Woodsman]

With regards to game balance, I'd have to throw out a suggestion that there are more skill checks done in various aspects.

For example, as far as I know of (and I admit, I can be wrong) there are only two or three Craft Armor or Craft Weapon checks in the ENTIRE SERVER.

Both of them are in a low-level area, and if Toman is ever in the area, he DOES hit one of them without a qualm. Granted, he's never gotten anything USEFUL (a leather armor suit so far) but it's the principle of the thing.

That said, I'd love to see other checks too, both of crafting, and others as well. There's just not enough of them, to be honest, IMO. But then, I'm admitting as well, I'm biased towards crafting.

[ARHicks00]

With regards to game balance, I'd have to throw out a suggestion that there are more skill checks done in various aspects.

For example, as far as I know of (and I admit, I can be wrong) there are only two or three Craft Armor or Craft Weapon checks in the ENTIRE SERVER.

Both of them are in a low-level area, and if Toman is ever in the area, he DOES hit one of them without a qualm. Granted, he's never gotten anything USEFUL (a leather armor suit so far) but it's the principle of the thing.

That said, I'd love to see other checks too, both of crafting, and others as well. There's just not enough of them, to be honest, IMO. But then, I'm admitting as well, I'm biased towards crafting.

No love for Dungeoneering? I rarely see that used.