Build Questions for "Stealthy Monk"

[Bobbydean]

Chad,

To your points above, do you feel that going M25, SD5 takes away too much from the Monks ability to shrug off most of what NPC's throw at it vs a M30? Can you supplement the lost 5 SR with gear to compensate? Pretty sure I'm going with M25/SD5 but do want to understand what I'd be giving up in terms of defense.

Thanks!

Nah, M25/SD5 is very strong. What it gives up with regard to defense is made up for. Yes AC is lower, but the first attack (highest AB of the round) always misses when you have Epic Dodge that can be better than AC in some cases. The loss of SR is made up for by learning how to HiPS so you can break target lock. The main issue with the M25/SD5 is not defense, it is just that it kills slower than most other Monks (Fiery Fists is a must). M20/A10 variant that Steve suggested is a little different in that you don't get Epic Dodge and lose more monk levels so are a bit weaker in terms of AC and Spell Resistance. In return you get more offense (5d6 death attack dice + chance to paralyze enemy=instant win). The Assassin also allows for you to focus on WIS if you chose instead of DEX, but as a stealth build that may not always be ideal.

All in all, M20/A10 is (in my opinion) a bit more difficult to play without any PC deaths while M25/SD5 would require the player to really screw up or should have no issue staying alive. SR gear does not stack so no supplementing, but really should not be a major issue. If you have decided upon M25/SD5 I say go for it, you won't have any issue with the results.

Chad, thanks for this info. This is great! So given all this info, I'm good to go with class breakdown then and general build direction. As you are clearly the resident build expert , do you mind if i throw in a couple extra questions?

1. As regard to race, I kinda wanted to go elf for rp reasons, but losing that extra feat and skill points seems like it's gonna really hurt given all of the feats I'm gonna need. Namely:
- Luck of Heroes, Dodge, Mobility, Weaopn Finesse, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Great Dexterityx3, Epic Dodge, Epic Prowess, Expose Weakness, Fiery Fists.

Do you think elf could work, or do I really need to go human.

2. Is blindfight considered essential? With limitations on feats, it might not get added to the build. If so, is there a way to compensate?

3. I mentioned HIPS having a cooldown, needing to be "learned" properly, and being vulnerable after using it. Can you elaborate a little more on that?

4. With fists, you lose 2 items that you could be holding in your hands. How do fist-based monks compensate for that? is the extra unarmed damage sufficient to make up for it? Seems like there could be a LOT of useful enchants on those extra two items that monks are losing out on. Thoughts on this?

5. Is there any purpose for the "search" skill if you have spot/listen maxed out? Does the keen senses skill change this equation significantly?

Thanks!

[chad878262]

1. As regard to race, I kinda wanted to go elf for rp reasons, but losing that extra feat and skill points seems like it's gonna really hurt given all of the feats I'm gonna need. Namely:
- Luck of Heroes, Dodge, Mobility, Weaopn Finesse, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Great Dexterityx3, Epic Dodge, Epic Prowess, Expose Weakness, Fiery Fists.

Do you think elf could work, or do I really need to go human.

Monk is not very feat intensive... As an Elf you get 7 pre-epic feats. LoH, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical = 6... Personally though I would say Weapon Focus and Improved Critical are luxury feats, not necessary feats. Ki Step and Fiery Fist would be on my list as must have. As to Epic feats, Epic Prowess, Expose Weakness, Epic Dodge is only 3 and you will get 6 (5 standard + 1 at Monk 25). 3 times Great DEX works fine here if you need it, but as a Moon Elf if you start with 19 DEX +7 from level-ups you are already at 26. That is more than enough, but seeing as the +4 DEX item is bracers (which you will need the slot for EB gloves) I would aim for odd DEX. So maybe go Great DEX 1 to get to 27 (30 w/ +3 item) and with the other two feats you could take other good stuff (improved Spell resistance or maybe self concealment for example).

2. Is blindfight considered essential? With limitations on feats, it might not get added to the build. If so, is there a way to compensate?

Unless you are aiming to be a pvp'er it is not essential. Very few mobs in game have any concealment. It's definitely good to have but if you want something else it is not the end of the world.

3. I mentioned HIPS having a cooldown, needing to be "learned" properly, and being vulnerable after using it. Can you elaborate a little more on that?

When you pop out of stealth the cooldown is 6 seconds before you can go back in to stealth. When I or others talk about learning how to use stealth it is a matter of understanding using it defensively vs. offensively. Offensive use essentially breaks down to spamming it in order to pop off sneak attacks as often as possible. Defensive is about using it at the right moment in the casting animation so that a spell caster loses whatever spell they were about to fire at you. In this manner HiPS (or ki step, or any other ability that breaks target lock) can effectively strip the most dangerous spells from enemies (especially bosses). Most of the time you don't need to worry much as a Monk/SD build since if HiPS is on cooldown you can just use ki step (which is why I would make sure to take that feat in your build).

4. With fists, you lose 2 items that you could be holding in your hands. How do fist-based monks compensate for that? is the extra unarmed damage sufficient to make up for it? Seems like there could be a LOT of useful enchants on those extra two items that monks are losing out on. Thoughts on this?

BG max weapon enchantment is +4 and most weapons will only add d4 damage (never seen more than d6 personally) and then give a few other bonuses at most (like for example epic kukri I once had was +4 EB, 2 bonus acid damage, +2 hide/ms, +3 dex). You'll wear gloves to get the +4 EB and gloves are out there that have some pretty good bonuses. Maybe you miss out on what a PTWF or Sword and Board character could get in terms of bonuses, but your 3d8 fist damage (average ~13.5) is far more than any one handed weapon (max ~5.5 for bastard sword) or two handed weapon (max ~7 for greatsword, with 30 STR they effectively are gaining 5 more dmg when two-handing putting them close to Fist monk) can reach. two handers get the benefit of 1.5 STR mod, sword and board or twf'ers get more bonuses, fist monks get better weapon damage.

5. Is there any purpose for the "search" skill if you have spot/listen maxed out? Does the keen senses skill change this equation significantly?

search finds traps. spot opposes hide, bluff (in case of feint) and disguise, listen opposes move silently. With your saves and improved evasion most traps won't be anything for you to worry about, but holy traps can ruin your day. Still with how fast a Monk runs no amount of search is going to help you find a trap before you trigger it when you are moving at *your* normal speed.

[Bobbydean]

Thanks again, Chad. Very informative!

[Arn]

I'm currently playing with some build ideas that fall into this thread, so forgive my thread necromancy.

Your speed (from monk and/or bodyguard) makes melee mobs a non-issue for you to hit and run, but if you do not take out a caster in the first flurry there is a pretty good chance you won't survive to go in to HiPS.

I agree that casters are a big threat to monks without high SR, but IMO with just 3 levels of Monk your speed won't be high enough to ignore all melee mobs (certainly you can outrun many mobs, but there are quite a few with buffed speed).

Regarding Monk25/SD5, my feeling is why HiPS when almost nothing can kill you anyways? But in the few situations where you're stuck and death is actually possible, I imagine Ki Stepping out to HiPS and heal can be a life-saver. And I guess being able to stealth faster than most people can run is probably pretty fun, lol (actually I may have just talked myself into creating a Monk25/SD5)

[Zkenic]

My dex monk is 20monk/5SD/5Whirling Dervish, which nets you maxed UMD and skill focus hide/ms/spot. HiPS is very useful to dodge magic, for example all the annoying bigbys in the Vault of the Dead. Against some monsters the 20damage expose weakness ticks are what carries the day, but against monsters that dont have DR you can do pretty mean damage even without the high wisdom + blazing aura.

Ive also done 20monk/3SD/3bodyguard/4fighter, which nets you more AB, more damage, and a little more speed, but I find epic dodge is better than all those things combined.