Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

chad878262 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:55 pm

Zeland wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:31 pm I have 100% seen people use potions while in HiPs and it not break stealth.

Um...If you saw them, then it broke stealth.

Mechanically speaking using any item *besides bandages* does break stealth in NWN2. In fact, the whole reason Expose Weakness was redesigned as it exists today (all hail Valefort, wherever that beautiful frenchy is these days!) is because any custom feat (read not part of vanilla NWN2) will always break stealth. The only stuff that doesn't break stealth is stuff that NWN2 shipped to have them not break stealth. So if you 'saw' someone use a potion while in stealth (still not sure how that works) I have to wonder if it was another game (or at minimum another server).

Stealth is a really tricky mechanic and some of the bugs (or strange design choices) work in a sneaks favor while some others very much do not! *Glares at the bug that causes enemies to chase you down and whack you even after going in to stealth*

chad878262 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:00 pm you do know Barbarian gets Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, right?? So no, you won't be denying them their dex or dodge AC.

Stehl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:58 pm

Hoihe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:31 pm

I used to be of the opinion that melee characters should have a maximum limit to their attacks before resting when people kept clamoring for making resting very difficult because "mages OP."



As for that "200 damage out of nowhere" - allow me to introduce you the barbarian! 40-50 damage/hit, 6 hits a round, likely hits 4 out of 6, can crit for 2x/3x that depending on weapon with good frequency, good AC, DR, carrying capacity, fast healing. With UMD, can't be shut down by anything.

Sneaker.

A simply buffing the H/MS of mobs makes them useless except for very finicky dances. And DMs love to make mobs require 70+ H/MS in their events.

Even some areas demand H/MS above 60 to manage.

And half the things are immune to sneak attack. the other half are immune to ability drain (rip swashbucklers - your only bonus over fighters).

Oh and for PvP, and spotting rogues?
Buffs that increase Listen:
Clarraudience +10
Amplify +20

Buffs that increase Move Silently:
Pass Without Trace +4


And how does stealth work?
Spotter: d20 + skill bonuses vs d20 + skill bonuses for stealther

If you roll just 1 bit above the stealther's roll, you spot them.

If you're an elf or in detect mode, you roll 6 times/round,



As for potions, I use them frequently. They always break stealth for me. The nuance is, the potion applies before stealth breaks, which is lovely when I HiPSed out with 1 HP and are chugging down potions of Heal to survive.

The only problem being that getting spot and listen isn't as easy as it's made out to be. Spot and Listen aren't class skills for most classes, so if you don't take a class that can get it AND have Able Learner you need to blow a ton of points on it just to get 15+ from skill points. Wisdom isn't exactly a major stat for most classes that don't use it for their class in some manner and it's not enough to close the gap. Six detections a round isn't going to cut it if you can't get above a 40 when the other person is seriously considering getting a sixty on stealth in order to not be seen in some zones.

And barbarian is very powerful, though technically rage should prevent them from doing most things that require complex actions or thought like UMD. NWN2 is very forgiving on certain things that shouldn't be possible on the tabletop. On a similar note, stealth should also be getting significant minuses for doing it directly in front of somebody in broad daylight. It's not magic, it's crouching aggressively in shadows until you can get behind somebody.

In ACTUAL game terms though, yeah a barbarian is rough. But "good" AC doesn't mean much much when your dex and dodge are negated, you're shieldless, and you lose AC from raging. You can't be flanked, but that doesn't apply to stealth. You still lose your dex and dodge because uncanny dodge doesn't work against hidden creatures, just invisible ones. Barbarian DR is good but DR doesn't reduce dice individually. It reduces sources individually. Sixty sneak attack damage still hits very hard and reduces strength by two, which requires resources barb doesn't normally have. A ranged build would also mess them up pretty badly because unless they're an elf they need to be in detect mode to reliably catch a stealth enemy, so that's lowered movement. If the archer gets one round of sneak attacks, they're boned.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:28 pm If at any point you do decide to make a HiPS character and learn first hand, let me know, and I will gladly log at least 3 builds to OOC'ly show you how fundamentally incorrect you are on it not existing.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:06 pm Allow me to present you: uncanny dodge.

It works against hidden creatures. My character has like... 20-25 AC that works when flatfooted - the rest is negated. She has uncanny dodge. Enemies that strike from stealth can't land a hit. Tested both with players and with mobs.

And it works regardless of the level discrepancy.

"Stealth isn't magic"

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... ncer.shtml

Hide in Plain Sight: Shadowdancers can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. They, cannot, however, hide in their own shadows. Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability.

Essentially, shadowdancers are discount sorcerers who are natural illusionists - of the shadow magic subschool. They draw upon the shadowstuff of the plane of shadows accessed through shadows upon the Prime Material to bend light around them.

This feat is somewhat misunderstood due to its incomplete description: it will not give the user blanket immunity to sneak attacks, but it does render the user immune to sneak attacks that are delivered via flank attacks.

Also, the basis of overcoming immunity to sneak attacks with the above in-game description is incorrect: Rather than merely classes with sneak attack bonuses being used, Improved Uncanny dodge may only be overcome by attackers with 4 or more levels in classes that grant Uncanny Dodge than the defender has class levels that grant Uncanny Dodge (i.e. Rogue and Assassin class levels qualify, but Arcane Trickster and Neverwinter Nine do not). Consider the following examples:

if an 18th level rogue attempts to flank attack a 15th level rogue to deliver a sneak attack, she may get the +2 bonus for flank attacks but if she hits, sneak attack damage parameters will not apply.
if the same 18th level rogue attacks the 15th level rogue from behind, sneak attack damage parameters will apply.
A 26th level player has 18 levels as rogue, 8 levels as a Swashbuckler and is invisible. She runs to the same 15th level rogue to deliver an improved flank attack while he is actively fighting another. She may get a +4 bonus to hit for an improved flank attack, but if she hits sneak attack damage will not apply.
A 25th level player (A) has 18 levels as rougue and 7 levels as Shadowdancer. She runs to a 26th opponent (B) with 11 levels in rogue, 10 in assassin and 5 in Neverwinter Nine. "B" is actively fighting another and "A" attempts to deliver a flank attack. "A" will get a +2 to hit "B" from flanking and, if she hits, sneak attack damage will apply.
if an 18th level rogue flank attacks a 14th level rogue, she would get a +2 to attack bonus (for a flank attack) and, it she hits, do sneak attack damage.
if a 7th level rogue in stealth mode is able to approach a 12th level rogue, who is currently in combat, undetected - the 12th level rogue will be treated as flat-footed (for the first flurry of attacks) and all attacks in the first round will deliver sneak attack damage.

The in-game description of this feat is incorrect. As per the Game Manual, this feat does not include attacks from hidden creatures. Successful attacks from stealth will not be affected by Uncanny Dodge.
Uncanny Dodge does work, but only as described in the Game Manual (not the in-game description shown above) - it is only effective against invisible attackers.

Stehl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:10 pm

Hoihe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:06 pm Allow me to present you: uncanny dodge.

It works against hidden creatures. My character has like... 20-25 AC that works when flatfooted - the rest is negated. She has uncanny dodge. Enemies that strike from stealth can't land a hit. Tested both with players and with mobs.

And it works regardless of the level discrepancy.

"Stealth isn't magic"

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... ncer.shtml

Hide in Plain Sight: Shadowdancers can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. They, cannot, however, hide in their own shadows. Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability.

Essentially, shadowdancers are discount sorcerers who are natural illusionists - of the shadow magic subschool. They draw upon the shadowstuff of the plane of shadows accessed through shadows upon the Prime Material to bend light around them.

This feat is somewhat misunderstood due to its incomplete description: it will not give the user blanket immunity to sneak attacks, but it does render the user immune to sneak attacks that are delivered via flank attacks.

Also, the basis of overcoming immunity to sneak attacks with the above in-game description is incorrect: Rather than merely classes with sneak attack bonuses being used, Improved Uncanny dodge may only be overcome by attackers with 4 or more levels in classes that grant Uncanny Dodge than the defender has class levels that grant Uncanny Dodge (i.e. Rogue and Assassin class levels qualify, but Arcane Trickster and Neverwinter Nine do not). Consider the following examples:

if an 18th level rogue attempts to flank attack a 15th level rogue to deliver a sneak attack, she may get the +2 bonus for flank attacks but if she hits, sneak attack damage parameters will not apply.
if the same 18th level rogue attacks the 15th level rogue from behind, sneak attack damage parameters will apply.
A 26th level player has 18 levels as rogue, 8 levels as a Swashbuckler and is invisible. She runs to the same 15th level rogue to deliver an improved flank attack while he is actively fighting another. She may get a +4 bonus to hit for an improved flank attack, but if she hits sneak attack damage will not apply.
A 25th level player (A) has 18 levels as rougue and 7 levels as Shadowdancer. She runs to a 26th opponent (B) with 11 levels in rogue, 10 in assassin and 5 in Neverwinter Nine. "B" is actively fighting another and "A" attempts to deliver a flank attack. "A" will get a +2 to hit "B" from flanking and, if she hits, sneak attack damage will apply.
if an 18th level rogue flank attacks a 14th level rogue, she would get a +2 to attack bonus (for a flank attack) and, it she hits, do sneak attack damage.
if a 7th level rogue in stealth mode is able to approach a 12th level rogue, who is currently in combat, undetected - the 12th level rogue will be treated as flat-footed (for the first flurry of attacks) and all attacks in the first round will deliver sneak attack damage.

The in-game description of this feat is incorrect. As per the Game Manual, this feat does not include attacks from hidden creatures. Successful attacks from stealth will not be affected by Uncanny Dodge.
Uncanny Dodge does work, but only as described in the Game Manual (not the in-game description shown above) - it is only effective against invisible attackers.

It doesn't work against stealth. This is information that's been out since the game's launch that uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge do not work against stealth, just true flanking and invisibility.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:12 pm

Stehl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:10 pm

Hoihe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:06 pm Allow me to present you: uncanny dodge.

It works against hidden creatures. My character has like... 20-25 AC that works when flatfooted - the rest is negated. She has uncanny dodge. Enemies that strike from stealth can't land a hit. Tested both with players and with mobs.

And it works regardless of the level discrepancy.

"Stealth isn't magic"

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... ncer.shtml

Hide in Plain Sight: Shadowdancers can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. They, cannot, however, hide in their own shadows. Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability.

Essentially, shadowdancers are discount sorcerers who are natural illusionists - of the shadow magic subschool. They draw upon the shadowstuff of the plane of shadows accessed through shadows upon the Prime Material to bend light around them.

This feat is somewhat misunderstood due to its incomplete description: it will not give the user blanket immunity to sneak attacks, but it does render the user immune to sneak attacks that are delivered via flank attacks.

Also, the basis of overcoming immunity to sneak attacks with the above in-game description is incorrect: Rather than merely classes with sneak attack bonuses being used, Improved Uncanny dodge may only be overcome by attackers with 4 or more levels in classes that grant Uncanny Dodge than the defender has class levels that grant Uncanny Dodge (i.e. Rogue and Assassin class levels qualify, but Arcane Trickster and Neverwinter Nine do not). Consider the following examples:

if an 18th level rogue attempts to flank attack a 15th level rogue to deliver a sneak attack, she may get the +2 bonus for flank attacks but if she hits, sneak attack damage parameters will not apply.
if the same 18th level rogue attacks the 15th level rogue from behind, sneak attack damage parameters will apply.
A 26th level player has 18 levels as rogue, 8 levels as a Swashbuckler and is invisible. She runs to the same 15th level rogue to deliver an improved flank attack while he is actively fighting another. She may get a +4 bonus to hit for an improved flank attack, but if she hits sneak attack damage will not apply.
A 25th level player (A) has 18 levels as rougue and 7 levels as Shadowdancer. She runs to a 26th opponent (B) with 11 levels in rogue, 10 in assassin and 5 in Neverwinter Nine. "B" is actively fighting another and "A" attempts to deliver a flank attack. "A" will get a +2 to hit "B" from flanking and, if she hits, sneak attack damage will apply.
if an 18th level rogue flank attacks a 14th level rogue, she would get a +2 to attack bonus (for a flank attack) and, it she hits, do sneak attack damage.
if a 7th level rogue in stealth mode is able to approach a 12th level rogue, who is currently in combat, undetected - the 12th level rogue will be treated as flat-footed (for the first flurry of attacks) and all attacks in the first round will deliver sneak attack damage.

The in-game description of this feat is incorrect. As per the Game Manual, this feat does not include attacks from hidden creatures. Successful attacks from stealth will not be affected by Uncanny Dodge.
Uncanny Dodge does work, but only as described in the Game Manual (not the in-game description shown above) - it is only effective against invisible attackers.

It doesn't work against stealth. This is information that's been out since the game's launch that uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge do not work against stealth, just true flanking and invisibility.

Mate

I'm playing a character that's reliant on uncanny dodge. I have been for 4 years now.


Permit me to aid you in research:



from: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Uncanny_Dodge


I employed a little bit of google-fu (searched the forums by limiting it to updates)

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2716&p=401851&hilit ... ge#p401851

Stehl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:19 pm

Hoihe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:12 pm

Stehl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:10 pm



It doesn't work against stealth. This is information that's been out since the game's launch that uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge do not work against stealth, just true flanking and invisibility.

Mate

I'm playing a character that's reliant on uncanny dodge. I have been for 4 years now.


Permit me to aid you in research:



from: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Uncanny_Dodge


I employed a little bit of google-fu (searched the forums by limiting it to updates)

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2716&p=401851&hilit ... ge#p401851

I'm also using a source! I have not only seen characters with uncanny dodge sneak attack each other out of stealth, but also it's been a hard fact since the game's launch that it doesn't work. The pages on the bgtscc wiki tend to be copied directly over from the nwn2 wiki. And hey look, here's all the info I pasted in that quote!

https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Improved_Uncanny_Dodge
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Uncanny_Dodge

The ability is designed in such a way, by intention or bug I have no idea, that stealth bypasses it. This is completely true in even the base tabletop because stealth is not invisibility. It's stealth.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:21 pm

Stehl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:19 pm

Hoihe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:12 pm

Mate

I'm playing a character that's reliant on uncanny dodge. I have been for 4 years now.


Permit me to aid you in research:



from: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Uncanny_Dodge


I employed a little bit of google-fu (searched the forums by limiting it to updates)

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2716&p=401851&hilit ... ge#p401851

I'm also using a source! I have not only seen characters with uncanny dodge sneak attack each other out of stealth, but also it's been a hard fact since the game's launch that it doesn't work. The pages on the bgtscc wiki tend to be copied directly over from the nwn2 wiki. And hey look, here's all the info I pasted in that quote!

https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Improved_Uncanny_Dodge
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Uncanny_Dodge

The ability is designed in such a way, by intention or bug I have no idea, that stealth bypasses it. This is completely true in even the base tabletop because stealth is not invisibility. It's stealth.

Uncanny dodge: It blocks the enemy's ability to deny your "reflexive" (dodge, tumble, deflect, dex, int) AC.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: It blocks your enemy's ability to inflict sneak attacks, as long as you are within a certain level range.

Reading comprehension.

Also:

Stehl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:25 pm

Hoihe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:21 pm

Stehl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:19 pm

I'm also using a source! I have not only seen characters with uncanny dodge sneak attack each other out of stealth, but also it's been a hard fact since the game's launch that it doesn't work. The pages on the bgtscc wiki tend to be copied directly over from the nwn2 wiki. And hey look, here's all the info I pasted in that quote!

https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Improved_Uncanny_Dodge
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Uncanny_Dodge

The ability is designed in such a way, by intention or bug I have no idea, that stealth bypasses it. This is completely true in even the base tabletop because stealth is not invisibility. It's stealth.

Uncanny dodge: It blocks the enemy's ability to deny your "reflexive" (dodge, tumble, deflect, dex, int) AC.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: It blocks your enemy's ability to inflict sneak attacks, as long as you are within a certain level range.

Reading comprehension.

Also:

And it does not work against stealth. Again. That image you have posted twice now fixes the fact that Uncanny Dodge did not work AT ALL against ANYTHING because of a bug. It is by design able to work against stealth. And not only are you now personally attacking me by saying I can't read, but you're not actually reading anything I'm providing.

I haven't insulted you once, I'm giving facts. Nothing posted has actually changed the fact that Uncanny Dodge doesn't work against stealth, and I'm stopping so the thread doesn't get locked because this is just becoming a series of screaming the same thing at each other.

chad878262 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:55 pm Um...If you saw them, then it broke stealth.

Stehl wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:58 pm Not all NPCs are created equally and no one build should have the capability to take down every or nearly every threat in front of them alone. Something called a "Necrolord" definitely sounds super dangerous and should be handled with a group, no? If I need to supply hard math to illustrate the point I was making, I will. At different levels of play if necessary. But there's a reason that rogue/assassin is a very popular meta build, especially with a dip into something that gives you extra attacks.

I may not have ten years of experience playing one archetype, I may not have a perfect knowledge of the server and it's myriad enemies, but that doesn't simply invalidate my opinion or simple facts.