Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Snarfy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:03 amI'm outta here.

I lied.

Almarea90 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:53 pm I honestly don't think we will magically find drow dukes or human matrons just because we will have to emote or write something instead of turning hostile and attacking straight away.

No-one is suggesting that "Drow Dukes", or anything remotely similar in nature, will be the result of changing the KoS rule. Not a single person.

What people are suggesting, I think, is this:
Giving underdark players the OOC ability(PvP-out) to remove themselves from any hostile situation, in an absolutely hostile environment, is not conducive to maintaining the integrity of the setting, and role-play.

If players believe they are being griefed, It's really quite simple: report the griefers to the DM's.

We don't need more rules. What we need is more players to abide by the already existing ones.

selhan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:54 am
By removing the rules, we can see what will happen in the future already. Drow Nobles and Dukes.

Human becoming Matron mothers spreading Loths name.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:25 pm

Almarea90 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:53 pm I honestly don't think we will magically find drow dukes or human matrons just because we will have to emote or write something instead of turning hostile and attacking straight away.

No-one is suggesting that "Drow Dukes", or anything remotely similar in nature, will be the result of changing the KoS rule. Not a single person.

I beg to disagree.

Anyway, imho we see a lot of conflict RP even when KoS is forbidden, for example between the factions of the surface.
It is true that UD races are seen with distrust by surface races, but so are many surface factions like the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards, yet they can't be killed on sight and nobody is complaining about that.

I blame Drizzt and that author RA Salvatore. If he hadn't written those books, you all wouldn't be looking for your "Drizzt" on the surface. We wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Almarea90 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:38 pm Anyway, imho we see a lot of conflict RP even when KoS is forbidden, for example between the factions of the surface.
It is true that UD races are seen with distrust by surface races, but so are many surface factions like the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards, yet they can't be killed on sight and nobody is complaining about that.

I'm not sure Red Wizards are a good comparison; it's like apples vs. oranges. The Red Wizards have an established enclave in Baldur's Gate and actively engage in trade with various surface nations. Many people may dislike or hate the Red Wizards, but their activities as they apply to the server and current world state lore-wise are a far cry from Drow, known primarily for raiding and enslavement of surfacers and outlawed in the vast majority of major settlements.

As for the Zhentarim, I'm not sure most people who are part of the Zhentarim go around loudly announcing they are and waving Zhentarim banners (and if they do, that should probably indicate hostilities are about to begin). An unmasked Drow on the surface, on the other hand, is immediately obvious.

Almarea90 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:38 pm

selhan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:54 am
By removing the rules, we can see what will happen in the future already. Drow Nobles and Dukes.

Human becoming Matron mothers spreading Loths name.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:25 pm

Almarea90 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:53 pm I honestly don't think we will magically find drow dukes or human matrons just because we will have to emote or write something instead of turning hostile and attacking straight away.

No-one is suggesting that "Drow Dukes", or anything remotely similar in nature, will be the result of changing the KoS rule. Not a single person.

I beg to disagree.

*Shakes fist at Selhan. Then shakes fist at self for missing that*.

Allow me to add an addendum:

No-one is seriously suggesting.... blah blah blah... Not a single person... except Selhan. And they were clearly exaggerating. I think?

Anyway, imho we see a lot of conflict RP even when KoS is forbidden, for example between the factions of the surface.
It is true that UD races are seen with distrust by surface races...

This might be a bit of a misnomer. Every bit of source material I can find pertaining to our current timeline, and setting, states that drow are far more than distrusted. Feared and/or reviled may be a more apt description, but... neither your description, nor mine, seem to be very applicable where BG RP is currently concerned, except in certain circles. Honestly, in all my years here, I have never IC'ly learned about soooo many surface characters spending so much time with drow, on the surface, and on such a regular basis.

And it makes me wonder how many of them are adhering to the this particular portion of the server rules:

Surface/Underdark Travel

When visiting the other side, have a legitimate roleplaying reason with a starting and ending point where you have to return to your home area once your business is concluded. (Being a point of contact and negotiating matters on behalf of a faction is an example of a legitimate reason, whereas going to the other side to PvP others is an example of an unacceptable reason.) Be ready to respond to a DM when asked by one.

Having a character of one side remain on a constant/permanent basis on the other side is not permitted without prior DM approval.

... but so are many surface factions like the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards, yet they can't be killed on sight and nobody is complaining about that.

Not exactly a fair comparison, but, heck, I'll gladly complain for you... ahem.
I don't like that any surface character, including(especially) Zhents and Red Wizards, can utilize an OOC rule to remove themselves from the IC repercussions of their actions.

Rooftops wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:45 pm I blame Drizzt and that author RA Salvatore. If he hadn't written those books, you all wouldn't be looking for your "Drizzt" on the surface. We wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I think most- clearly not all but most- UD players, drow in particular, play evil.

The thing that really muddled the RP a bit is helping new players with gear and quests and such if they are alone and lost. I’m supremely guilty of that even though it’s pretty ooc no matter how I try to spin it.

Almarea90 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:38 pm Anyway, imho we see a lot of conflict RP even when KoS is forbidden, for example between the factions of the surface.
It is true that UD races are seen with distrust by surface races, but so are many surface factions like the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards, yet they can't be killed on sight and nobody is complaining about that.

A lot of people build their characters to be in conflict with those surface factions at level 1. Most never really had a true RP experience on this server where those surface factions wronged them. Its pre-generated aggression.

For instance, lets say I make a character and write up a bio that they lost their family to tieflings when they were a child, and then I decided that character trained really hard to get strong and hunt tielfing for vengeance. At level 1(though it might be suicide), I just created a RP reason to PvP every tiefling I come across. I could always bend the RP to a 1000 wrongs that my character has been dealt, force tielfing characters into a corner where they have to PvP me. At this point, I created RP and forced it upon a bunch of players that really don't want to have anything to do with me.

Rooftops wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:45 pm I blame Drizzt and that author RA Salvatore. If he hadn't written those books, you all wouldn't be looking for your "Drizzt" on the surface. We wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I will be fair to R.A. Salvatore. You need a hook to make a character you are going to sell interesting, and Drizzt being an exile on the surface is fascinating. Its sort of like how Blade is a vampire that can exist in daylight because of his dual nature.

I think its the romanticism of the Drow world that occurred after R.A. Salvatore's books took off that is mostly to blame.

Rooftops wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:45 pm I blame Drizzt and that author RA Salvatore. If he hadn't written those books, you all wouldn't be looking for your "Drizzt" on the surface. We wouldn't even be having this discussion.

this is the problem right here, if it wasnt for drizzt and eilistraee people wouldnt have to have headaches about tree hugging drow trying to be friendly with people who are out to kill them

the other half of the problem was people who didnt like pvp being caught in the middle of a drow raid because they stand there like idiots watching instead of running for their lives and then complain when they are killed

I’m not so sure a KoS except civilized Areas/maps can ever work on BGTSCC. Exactly because the Level spread sandbox is too great, and far too many “your Level 30 just obliterated my Level 10 you awful RP griefer” issues will come up to make it worth it.

Honestly, I love you all, but I don’t think this Server is adult enough and filled with enough respect toward each other to make it work. There is not enough DM management and honestly, who would want to DM manage a Server full of Kill on Sight issues being cleared up on a regular basis?!?

However, considering there is no real Permadeath on BGTSCC, one could also ask why this issue of KoS really matters. Because one can just “take a hit” and the next day all is good and normal. And then plan again. Live again. What it really comes down to is personal issues with getting mechanically beat, which is totally OOC, and does it really matter when in 24 hours everything resets?!?

Guys, especially the newcomers - what are you even derailing this thread into? What does it have to do with drow ICly being vile, with Drizzt, with acceptance? It is not even what the topic is about, I just used drow as the main example because this is the most bright illustration (too bright as it turned out!). I've written the main thought of this thread many times, but I guess I'm having to specifically highlight it.

This is not about giving drow more or less freedom. This is about removing an obsolette anti-RP ruling, the ruling that is rarely used, but still can be potentially utilized for attacking characters without any RP provided. This ruling has no corelation with acceptance of drow, see my previous posts for more details.

With the current set of PvP rules, any situation where you emote anything makes KoS obsolette anyway (check my previous post to see why), so I suggest removing it as a rudiment from the past, a rudiment that can still be used for legalizing griefing (in this case, PvPing random characters for lulz with no RP provided). If KoS suddenly disappears, nobody, like -nobody- will even feel the difference. This is being removed as an old, useless, yet potentially harmful tool.

Blackman D wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:47 pm

Rooftops wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:45 pm I blame Drizzt and that author RA Salvatore. If he hadn't written those books, you all wouldn't be looking for your "Drizzt" on the surface. We wouldn't even be having this discussion.

this is the problem right here, if it wasnt for drizzt and eilistraee people wouldnt have to have headaches about tree hugging drow trying to be friendly with people who are out to kill them

Eh, I personally have issues with how DnD handles "evil races" as a whole, not just drow. It's one thing for there to be systemic biases between races ICly, that's great, as well as some cultures being darker and more evil than others. But there should always be room, IMO, for people who reject their heritage and culture when that heritage and culture is evil, whether they be drow, orcs, bugbears, kobolds (Deekin!), etc, as well as for those who would be tolerant of such characters. Ideally, all races should have just as much potential for variety in beliefs as humans have, even if some slant more one way or the other. Lizardmen are a good example of a monster race done right, IMO.

But on to the topic of this thread, I'm not much of a pvper so I don't have a stake in pvp rules discussions. But I'm generally not a fan of requiring that people always give/accept RP outs and feel that can be immersion breaking in some scenarios/for some characters, but I'm also wary of free KoS allowing people to just freely gank others with little to no RP. And I'm wary of what victorious PCs are allowed to do to defeated PCs, and feel there should be more rules against eg mutilation of your victim's body, and I'd prefer more defeats be 'left them for dead/beaten up' rather than actually dead.

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 pmThis is not about giving drow more or less freedom. This is about removing an obsolette anti-RP ruling, the ruling that is rarely used, but still can be potentially utilized for attacking characters without any RP provided. This ruling has no corelation with acceptance of drow, see my previous posts for more details.

It kind of does, though. If you can't KoS an evil race that your lore-backed elf hates with a burning passion and have to let them go every time, I would argue that kills RP in a totally different and far more annoying way than having to be (appropriately) sneaky as a Drow on the surface or a surfacer in the UD.

Blackbird wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:12 pm

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 pmThis is not about giving drow more or less freedom. This is about removing an obsolette anti-RP ruling, the ruling that is rarely used, but still can be potentially utilized for attacking characters without any RP provided. This ruling has no corelation with acceptance of drow, see my previous posts for more details.

It kind of does, though. If you can't KoS an evil race that your lore-backed elf hates with a burning passion and have to let them go every time, I would argue that kills RP in a totally different and far more annoying way than having to be (appropriately) sneaky as a Drow on the surface or a surfacer in the UD.

I would say it's not so much that the removal of KoS would kill/cripple role-play necessarily... but it will give underdark characters the ability to opt out of any and all surface confrontations with even the most basic and minimal of role-play(if any). And the reason for that will be...

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 pm... it's true that outs are determined by the challenged party, not by aggressors

I haven't commented on this thread thus far, time to do it! I'm confused as to why there's a rule in the first place. It may be more prudent to have a list of areas that you should not PvP in and if you can, where exactly you can; this shouldn't be a drow-non drow matter; it should be UNDERSTOOD that surfacers who go into the Underdark are risking their lives and drow who go to the surface do the same.

This also shouldn't be a "drow Dukes," "human matron mother," Eilistraeean, Lolthite, or whatever matter.

The rule should be a reminder, not a rule, and if people ignore the reminder and their characters get curbstomped, then that's that. However, that also leaves the hole of people just coming down to gank others. Make the rule instead that before PvP, there must be RP, even an emote each. The PvP-out rule should NOT be an UD vs surface issue either, because with both rules as they are now, drow on the surface do not get any PvP out. Their mere presence is considered KOS consent. In all honesty, I wish that the PvP out rule and KoS rules were removed and instead, there's our list of PvP courtesy guidelines and a rule to have some pertinent RP beforehand. Just one emote each!

If the two rules are kept, I ask that the Upperdark be included with the Underdark. Drow don't get the Troll Claws or Boareskyr and their only reprieve are allied guildhouses and Soubar. Surfacers, however, receive several grinding zones which, being the Upperdark, is still part of the Underdark.

There's also Rinzler and yyj's points: even with this lifted, Underdarkers (drow in particular) STILL cannot come up without a PvP reason. As for Snarfy, thank you: we indeed do not need more rules, but instead that the current rules be followed.

Steve wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:06 pm
Honestly, I love you all, but I don’t think this Server is adult enough and filled with enough respect toward each other to make it work. There is not enough DM management and honestly, who would want to DM manage a Server full of Kill on Sight issues being cleared up on a regular basis?!?

This. 100% agree.

This is basically my view of the whole situation and what I was alluding to, but you bluntly said it.