Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

[Tekill]

Now I’d the time to RCR that old 30 into a nasty chimney elf and join team evil

Will a chimney dwarf do?
Nevermind I will find out when I get there. I'm on my way!!!

[Tanlaus]

Now I’d the time to RCR that old 30 into a nasty chimney elf and join team evil

Will a chimney dwarf do?
Nevermind I will find out when I get there. I'm on my way!!!

Chimney dwarves, chimney elves, chimney gnomes... if you’re a chimney dweller now is the time!

[The Whistler]

Hidden: show

RP XP does work cross server. My Bregan character goes to Soubar for clandestine meetings fairly regularly. I still see the message though his XP bar is maxed out.

There’s also several surfacers/surface groups interested in either working with or against drow and plenty of opportunity for it.

Had some great RP with Jalib and some of his house members which started over a PVP conflict between them and another drow.

DM Spartacus had some great events for the UD tied into the whole Balor invasion going on over the last couple of months.

Also there are now two active DMs in the UD, DM Dreamer and DM Vanquish who have been hosting both planned and impromptu events. This more than anything brings the setting alive...

Which brings me to @JustAnotherGuy, I think now that we have some UD active DMs we can finally advance that plot of yours that really should be a lot of fun.

Now I’d the time to RCR that old 30 into a nasty chimney elf and join team evil

You're not doing the Underdark any favors by pretending a few disjointed plots here and there are any indication of healthy activity. I've been something of a regular in the down under of late and the most interesting RP I've had while there was taking part in a few forays (read: lootruns) in the surrounding areas. Now, the surface is experiencing similar symptoms with all the social campfire RP going on but at least there's a bigger player pool from which to pick and choose. I guess what I'm trying to say is less mechanical restrictions will make things more interesting for both sides and if the experiment results in failure, they can always be reinstated.

[Tanlaus]

Hidden: show

RP XP does work cross server. My Bregan character goes to Soubar for clandestine meetings fairly regularly. I still see the message though his XP bar is maxed out.

There’s also several surfacers/surface groups interested in either working with or against drow and plenty of opportunity for it.

Had some great RP with Jalib and some of his house members which started over a PVP conflict between them and another drow.

DM Spartacus had some great events for the UD tied into the whole Balor invasion going on over the last couple of months.

Also there are now two active DMs in the UD, DM Dreamer and DM Vanquish who have been hosting both planned and impromptu events. This more than anything brings the setting alive...

Which brings me to @JustAnotherGuy, I think now that we have some UD active DMs we can finally advance that plot of yours that really should be a lot of fun.

Now I’d the time to RCR that old 30 into a nasty chimney elf and join team evil

You're not doing the Underdark any favors by pretending a few disjointed plots here and there are any indication of healthy activity. I've been something of a regular in the down under of late and the most interesting RP I've had while there was taking part in a few forays (read: lootruns) in the surrounding areas. Now, the surface is experiencing similar symptoms with all the social campfire RP going on but at least there's a bigger player pool from which to pick and choose. I guess what I'm trying to say is less mechanical restrictions will make things more interesting for both sides and if the experiment results in failure, they can always be reinstated.

I’m neither for nor against mechanical changes. But what I stated about UD activity is true. Granted due to work and time zone issues I’m much more of a weekend player lately, but I’ve had a group and some form of DM event pretty consistently for the past month or two every weekend.

You are right that there is much more of this on the surface, but there is activity in the UD...

Probably more for Bregan because we actively engage in building a plot on the forums. But I think that’s true of the surface as well, people who actively engage here tend to end up involved in events that the forum RP builds up to.

Conversely bee also try to include pretty much anyone who happens to be around because it’s difficult to find both groups and DM activity down there. But it does exist and some of us are working to cultivate more of it.

[The Whistler]

Is it not even a tiny bit concerning that pretty much the only active UD faction is the Bregan D'aerthe ? What sort of dynamic does that create ? At its heyday the UD had 3 factions pitted against each other which was still nowhere near the complexity that the surface was capable of.

[Xorena]

Maerinval is dead. I sometimes log in to check the place out (and maintain my summon if I'm being honest) but I do not have any serious intent of RPing in the Underdark. We had some DM support for a bit, but after we talked about our plans to raid the surface in an area where other people could also go (we had no private space to RP in) our plan was known within 24 hours by multiple surface factions and I think that kind of killed desire of several players to be down there. These days I am busy with Red Wizards and work, with a vacation coming up.

This brings me to another point. If Team Good wants to have frenemies or factions to play against, you can't have a scorched earth policy. While it may be IC to utterly destroy the enemy, there are people involved who also want to have a good time. You can't honestly wonder why nobody plays X evil faction when your policy excludes or annihilates them.

[DaloLorn]

Maerinval is dead. I sometimes log in to check the place out (and maintain my summon if I'm being honest) but I do not have any serious intent of RPing in the Underdark. We had some DM support for a bit, but after we talked about our plans to raid the surface in an area where other people could also go (we had no private space to RP in) our plan was known within 24 hours by multiple surface factions and I think that kind of killed desire of several players to be down there. These days I am busy with Red Wizards and work, with a vacation coming up.

This brings me to another point. If Team Good wants to have frenemies or factions to play against, you can't have a scorched earth policy. While it may be IC to utterly destroy the enemy, there are people involved who also want to have a good time. You can't honestly wonder why nobody plays X evil faction when your policy excludes or annihilates them.

For my part, I remember Ilhara wanted to infiltrate Maerinval as a spy, to learn more about the attack... though besides the initial leak, there was neither opportunity nor reason to do so, since the attack was canceled before I could even catch any of them online.

I probably bear some of the blame for the rate at which the surfacers learned Maerinval was planning an attack, though. I think Ilhara personally warned at least three factions. She also tried to keep it quiet precisely to prevent the Lolthites from knowing their victims were on to them, but that obviously didn't pan out.

[Xorena]

Hidden: show

For my part, I remember Ilhara wanted to infiltrate Maerinval as a spy, to learn more about the attack... though besides the initial leak, there was neither opportunity nor reason to do so, since the attack was canceled before I could even catch any of them online.

I probably bear some of the blame for the rate at which the surfacers learned Maerinval was planning an attack, though. I think Ilhara personally warned at least three factions. She also tried to keep it quiet precisely to prevent the Lolthites from knowing their victims were on to them, but that obviously didn't pan out.

Not to detract from this post but I had some other things going on. My dad had just died that year (a year ago May 27) and I was struggling with motivation to log in.

Maerinval wasnt super active as a guild in that we had jobs and could only log in once a week or so. The activity for our guild definitely was affected by the fact that nothing was really happening in the Underdark. It is true that if you log in other people show up. If there is not already maybe there needs to be an UD Discord or channel to coordinate better.

[Alexander Holgart]

Maerinval is dead. I sometimes log in to check the place out (and maintain my summon if I'm being honest) but I do not have any serious intent of RPing in the Underdark. We had some DM support for a bit, but after we talked about our plans to raid the surface in an area where other people could also go (we had no private space to RP in) our plan was known within 24 hours by multiple surface factions and I think that kind of killed desire of several players to be down there. These days I am busy with Red Wizards and work, with a vacation coming up.

This brings me to another point. If Team Good wants to have frenemies or factions to play against, you can't have a scorched earth policy. While it may be IC to utterly destroy the enemy, there are people involved who also want to have a good time. You can't honestly wonder why nobody plays X evil faction when your policy excludes or annihilates them.

I agree with this. It should be more about creating engaging stories than winning or losing. Giving a bit of breathing space to the evil factions would allow them to grow and create engagement. The goal should not be to annihilate the other but to create meaningful narrative for everyone, OOC speaking.

[Tanlaus]

Hidden: show

For my part, I remember Ilhara wanted to infiltrate Maerinval as a spy, to learn more about the attack... though besides the initial leak, there was neither opportunity nor reason to do so, since the attack was canceled before I could even catch any of them online.

I probably bear some of the blame for the rate at which the surfacers learned Maerinval was planning an attack, though. I think Ilhara personally warned at least three factions. She also tried to keep it quiet precisely to prevent the Lolthites from knowing their victims were on to them, but that obviously didn't pan out.

Not to detract from this post but I had some other things going on. My dad had just died that year (a year ago May 27) and I was struggling with motivation to log in.

Maerinval wasnt super active as a guild in that we had jobs and could only log in once a week or so. The activity for our guild definitely was affected by the fact that nothing was really happening in the Underdark. It is true that if you log in other people show up. If there is not already maybe there needs to be an UD Discord or channel to coordinate better.

There is an active UD discord channel that DM Vanquish started. Actually I pmd you in game one time to see if you wanted to join but never got a response. But you could easily have been AFK or something. I miss PMs all the time.

Also the Bregan public discord is open to everyone really. Before DM Vanquish started his channel that’s how most of us would schedule something. There’s even plenty of non UD players who are in it as well. Everyone is welcome really.

[Steve]

If “public” Discord channels are made in order to facilitate RP on BGTSCC, but no mention is made on the Forum, that is bad practice and creates an “only this in the know...” or clique-like group situation.

Not saying it was intentional, but can absolutely be the effect.

[Tekill]

My conspiracy theory is this:
Evil players/faction caused friction in the past due mainly PVP.
Then-
Good players unable to accept that sometimes Good does not always win, whined and complained becoming a vocal minority about the evils of evil players.
Then-
Admin and DMs, sick of the bullcrap took the path of least resistance- restricting pvp and Evil RP on the serer. Only supporting players that just wanted to get along.
Then-
Evil RP dried up having been smothered.
This-
lead to a situation where an fledgling lolthite house tries some conflict RP and evil RP. And a bunch of players so utterly desperate for any sort of conflict RP, bum rushed this guild before anything could even be started, in their zealous over excitement for any sort of evil to face off against.
This-
Proved to me without a doubt that there is a HUGE Evil/Conflict RP Deficit on this server.

There was talk of creating a Lolthite map - a zone in game dominated by the Church of Lolth. Now that there there is room for such an area per the server split, will this zone be implemented?
The Lolthites need a base for their evil operations. And the rest of the UD needs the presence of Lolth, to resist against!
It might be too late, but if you build it, they might come. it is my personal believe that at the core of Underdark RP you will find Lolthites. A city of wizards, is simply not what I think of first when I think of Drow society. The surface has Soubar which has worked amazingly. The UD needs a Lolthite base of operations to better foster UD RP.

There are lots of ideas and things that can be done to support the interest that people have in the UD. But, the choice has been made to not try to make any real changes.

[Xorena]

My conspiracy theory is this:
Evil players/faction caused friction in the past due mainly PVP.
Then-
Good players unable to accept that sometimes Good does not always win, whined and complained becoming a vocal minority about the evils of evil players.
Then-
Admin and DMs, sick of the bullcrap took the path of least resistance- restricting pvp and Evil RP on the serer. Only supporting players that just wanted to get along.
Then-
Evil RP dried up having been smothered.
This-
lead to a situation where an fledgling lolthite house tries some conflict RP and evil RP. And a bunch of players so utterly desperate for any sort of conflict RP, bum rushed this guild before anything could even be started, in their zealous over excitement for any sort of evil to face off against.
This-
Proved to me without a doubt that there is a HUGE Evil/Conflict RP Deficit on this server.

I don't think that's a conspiracy theory at all.

The question is how does the server actually foster a non-toxic relationship between Team Good and people who enjoy playing evil going forward? We can complain about a lack of DMs interested in Underdark or Red Wizard RP, but my experience is if you present a plan and explain how multiple players will be involved, they will consider it (even if it isn't all the time or it takes a while).

To be honest I'm not sure I'd want to spend my rare online time trying to find ways to engage with players who have not shown a collaborative intent in the past. That trust will have to be rebuilt. It's really a downer trying to do something fun and then get utterly shut down and demoralized.

[Shadowspinner70]

Sorry, Blackman. I didn't intend to push the blame onto anyone; there were certainly issues involving them, issues I was by and large not here for, but they themselves were not specifically the issue. I'll choose my words more carefully in the future.

There is very little trust between players across the board. Sometimes trust can be rebuilt and sometimes it can't be. Evil and good, surface and underdark, and even within those groups.

Intrigue RP and conflict RP, to go well, means we have to have some sort of trust in each other as parties involved. Rules were set because the bar had to be pushed back, or staff felt that the bar had to be pushed back and some trust was lost.

Through talking to and getting to know my fellow players, I've learned who to trust, who not to trust, and who to trust with what. Hell, I've had trust in a few players shattered very recently, and built in others.

You can't trust everyone. You also can't put everyone under the same label of "can't be trusted" because that's what stifles conflict and spying. There's healthy caution.

There's also taking someone's trust in a conflict or spying situation and manipulating it, or breaking it. That seems to be the overarching theme in this thread. As people have mentioned once or twice, build the trust, then we can address mechanics and rules.

[athornforyourheart]

As people have mentioned once or twice, build the trust, then we can address mechanics and rules.

Your entire statement is well written and makes perfect sense. A lot of what leads to things going sour is the lack of communication on both ends. You can have conflict and agree on the wins and losses without having to “hate” each other.

But this fake video game is serious to some people. It’s like an escape and gods be damned, they’ll not have their fake pixel character suffer defeat.

Of course, we’ll deny it and say we understand it’s just a game... but we’re only playing lip service to the fact. Because at the core, we don’t change. I’m sorry for being the pessimist here but I don’t believe the player base has the will to do this. I suppose I’m being extremely blunt about it these days because for a change in overall attitudes, you pretty much have to smack people in the face with the truth.

So yes, I agree. It all stems from trust and getting along more on the ooc note to make things better both mechanically and role play wise.

//typed on my phone, sry for typos