Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm You are dodging the question - name me at least one class combination that has become overpowered due to cosmo feats.

Dude, read up. The one who has been dodging here is you. Going from "Nothing really changed." to the appeal (sic) of classes that are already appealing.
Now what they are gaining take a pick or a combination of picks from the list below
- More multiclassing options
- XP Penalty avoidance
- Higher AC
- Detection
- +6 saves
- potential feat management
- Very easy access to umd
- Reaping the benefits of continuing class progression instead of multiclassing ( Barbarians, rangers, casters )

It can be one or a combination of items from the list above. For example what I plan to do with my builds
- rangers and barbarians get cosmo umd automatic. Cosmo tumble if i want to F around
- DC Casters. detection (Cosmo Spot)
- Rogues Cosmo Spellcraft +6 saves

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:44 pm

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm You are dodging the question - name me at least one class combination that has become overpowered due to cosmo feats.

Dude, read up. The one who has been dodging here is you. Going from "Nothing really changed." to the appeal (sic) of classes that are already appealing.
Now what they are gaining take a pick or a combination of picks from the list below
- More multiclassing options
- XP Penalty avoidance
- Higher AC
- Detection
- +6 saves
- potential feat management
- Very easy access to umd
- Reaping the benefits of continuing class progression instead of multiclassing ( Barbarians, rangers, casters )

It can be one or a combination of items from the list above. For example what I plan to do with my builds
- rangers and barbarians get cosmo umd automatic. Cosmo tumble if i want to F around
- DC Casters. detection (Cosmo Spot)
- Rogues Cosmo Spellcraft +6 saves

You just keep proving my point that there is more building variety without any of it being overpowered.

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:27 pmPoint me at least one build that has become powerful out of proportions due to cosmo feats, leaving everything else within the archetype far behind.

fighter 12/dervish 10/wm 5/sd 3
fighter/dervish/tempest/sd
ranger/monk/cavestalker zen archery
25 phantom/5 shadowdancer with epic dodge
20 monk/7 sf/3cleric
ranger/monk
ranger/sd

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:07 pm

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:27 pmPoint me at least one build that has become powerful out of proportions due to cosmo feats, leaving everything else within the archetype far behind.

fighter 12/dervish 10/wm 5/sd 3
fighter/dervish/tempest/sd
ranger/monk/cavestalker zen archery
25 phantom/5 shadowdancer with epic dodge
20 monk/7 sf/3cleric
ranger/monk
ranger/sd

Those aren't particularly strong in PvM. Better examples would include:
fs/(bg/pal/cl)
druid 30
monk 30
barbarians
clerics of every flavor

You just keep posting nice combinations that's become more appealing due to the cosmo feat addition. For some reason you see an issue in it, but I see a way bigger variery of strong builds in play than it used to be back in the day (where every ranger was Ranger 21 / Ssin 9 and so on). This variety is a blessing, unless there's some combination that ruins the balance, performing several heads higher than the rest. So far nobody found it. On top of this, consider that a cosmo feat costs, well, a feat. It's not a big deal, but it's another balancing factor on top.

Overall, I see a positive trend. If overpowered combinations gonna pop up, those can be addressed case by case.

I also disagree with the argument about Rogues losing their value. Rogue still remains one of the best dips due to uncanny dodge, evasion and access to all the useful skills save for heal/spellcraft, as well as sneak dice progression - all under 4 levels with 0 requirement.

I wouldn't switch my 4 levels of rogue for a couple of cosmo feats, personally. Way way more skill points and other peripherals I find valuable in Derik's build.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:07 pm

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:27 pmPoint me at least one build that has become powerful out of proportions due to cosmo feats, leaving everything else within the archetype far behind.

fighter 12/dervish 10/wm 5/sd 3
fighter/dervish/tempest/sd
ranger/monk/cavestalker zen archery
25 phantom/5 shadowdancer with epic dodge
20 monk/7 sf/3cleric
ranger/monk
ranger/sd

Fighter 12/ FB 5/ WM7/ DC 6 - +3 AC/Scrolls/Spot

Barbarian 25/ FB 5 - Scrolls/Spot

Ranger 26/ Fighter 4 (dex) +3 AC/Scrolls

Ranger 22 / monk 3 / EA 5 (wis) +3 AC/Scrolls

Fighter 12/ SD 3/ Dervish 10/ FB 5 - Scrolls

MaA 25/ Pal 5 or MaA 26/BG 4 - Scrolls/Spot

Druid 27/ SD3 - Scrolls

Fighter 12 / DwD 10 / DC 8 - +3 AC/Scrolls

Fighter 12/ 8 AK (or WoD) / DC 10 - +3 AC/Scrolls/Spot

Monk 30 - Scrolls

Monk 20/ DC 10 - Scrolls

Monk 27/ FotF 3 - Scrolls

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:34 pm You just keep posting nice combinations that's become more appealing due to the cosmo feat addition. For some reason you see an issue in it, but I see a way bigger variery of strong builds in play

You keep talking about variety and strong builds. It is the same variety of already strong builds that just got stronger. That's it.

than it used to be back in the day (where every ranger was Ranger 21 / Ssin 9 and so on). This variety is a blessing, unless there's some combination that ruins the balance, performing several heads higher than the rest. So far nobody found it.

Even back in the day, most rangers (especially mains ) were full rangers or some 26/4 split. Catam, Celduil and the other human ranger of the Elder Circle( sorry i forgot the characters name.. ) for example. On BG Ranger/Assassins were never as popular due to the full spellcasting progression and enhanced spell book. That was more of a case after the dispel fix.

On top of this, consider that a cosmo feat costs, well, a feat. It's not a big deal, but it's another balancing factor on top.

They cost a feat. That is it. No multiclassing penalty, no loss of CL, no loss of epic feats, no loss of progression. If you have a build with no tumble as a class skill and you took one skill that gives you +1AC (Armor skin) then Cosmo Tumble is automatic even for the brain dead. If you play a wizard sorcerer and are worried about sneaks, Cosmo Spot and you are done with no CL loss and still being able to pick 3 more PRCs of the many that BG offers. If you are a pvp junkie and want to teabag every other character, much easier with lets say a ranger or a barbarian or a monk etc cosmo umd is a no brainer. I mean you said you already got it so you get my drift...

Overall, I see a positive trend. If overpowered combinations gonna pop up, those can be addressed case by case.

Or get rid of the feats and offer full rcr to the builds affected. In any case, even if the feats stay in, it is gucci. Full progression rangers with UMD can teabag everyone in pvp much easier, as long as it is the rangers favored person Certain Barbarian, Monk builds can do the same, while rogues can get a much needed boost (+6) on all saves especailly for PvE

PS And so that I do not Forget, Make the FS26/ClericofIstithia4 Great Again with cosmo umd and or cosmo tumble

Kopo, OP's complaint is about Cosmo feats. Even if Cosmo feats did not empower any build it certainly devalued the primary boon of many others.

Why should skills be locked behind classes? It makes sense for a character to excel at something due to their background, rather than their class. DnD / Pathfinder supports that. With Cosmo, there is now a lot more freedom in expressing character concepts without tainting them with random class dips.

As for mechanical implications... we can always tweak things in a way that's not in opposition to the above goal. Maybe some skills are overall too powerful and then it doesn't matter who has it, because even pre-cosmo every skill out there could have been abused by a big number of builds.

Maybe some skills should be indeed tightly coupled with a class but without any of that "dipping for skill" nonsense (plus maxing it out with Able Learner). Instead, skill bonuses could be given at certain class levels. Or, for example, "full benefit" UMD could be made available to only characters with X number of class levels (much higher than 3) and otherwise UMD works up to, let's say 6th circle.

The design can improve, but let's be honest here - it wasn't any better before Cosmo feats.

matelener wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:00 pm Why should skills be locked behind classes? It makes sense for a character to excel at something due to their background, rather than their class. DnD / Pathfinder supports that.

That's a slippery slope, though. From what I gather, the server is specifically within 2nd/3rd/3.5 Edition D&D, in both lore and mechanics. If the server is moving towards a more homebrew, that should be made clear, as Pathfinder is far different (and arguably superior in many respects). Skills being locked behind their classes is very much a staple of the current build of mechanics and lore that the server is based.

As far as the OP goes, however, I see the complaint for what it is: it's difficult to be a sneaker already. A greater degree of builds now have access to full detection, which makes life more difficult for those characters who rely on sneaking. That said, I see it as a negligible change. Players who want to build a detection PC will find a way to make one anyway. While it's now easier for non-specialized detection PC's to be made (and with a wider degree of builds to do so), there aren't going to be a sudden influx of new PCs who all have detection that there wouldn't be anyway.

matelener wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:00 pm Why should skills be locked behind classes? It makes sense for a character to excel at something due to their background, rather than their class. DnD / Pathfinder supports that. With Cosmo, there is now a lot more freedom in expressing character concepts without tainting them with random class dips.

As for mechanical implications... we can always tweak things in a way that's not in opposition to the above goal. Maybe some skills are overall too powerful and then it doesn't matter who has it, because even pre-cosmo every skill out there could have been abused by a big number of builds.

Maybe some skills should be indeed tightly coupled with a class but without any of that "dipping for skill" nonsense (plus maxing it out with Able Learner). Instead, skill bonuses could be given at certain class levels. Or, for example, "full benefit" UMD could be made available to only characters with X number of class levels (much higher than 3) and otherwise UMD works up to, let's say 6th circle.

The design can improve, but let's be honest here - it wasn't any better before Cosmo feats.

I agree wholeheartedly. The Extra Skill feats don't break the game nearly as much as they highlight the brokenness that was always there. If they raise awareness and lead to fixing those preexisting issues? That just strikes me as an additional compelling reason to leave them in the game.

I also like the direction your ideas are going in.

matelener wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:00 pm Why should skills be locked behind classes? It makes sense for a character to excel at something due to their background, rather than their class. DnD / Pathfinder supports that. With Cosmo, there is now a lot more freedom in expressing character concepts without tainting them with random class dips.

In Pathfinder, unlocking skills outside of classes is done through character backgrounds. In hindsight, this is how we should have done it. And I'm heavily thinking about changing to this in the future.

Doing them as feats is problematic.

So what is the verdict here? it stays or go?

because i need to start re-leveling all my toons with cosmo now and dont want them to be removed after a year playing it.

While powercreep isn't trivial, that BGTSCC has seen a large rise of powercreep since Elixirs were introduced—and likely before that even—the Cosmo feats mechanical advantage dispute does come across as trivial.

There are so many larger fish to fry, as they say.

Mechanics are nearly pointless, at this point in the Servers lifetime. I would argue that player knowledge OOC has reached a zenith, and that even with one eye, one hand and half-drunk, the majority of players could still "win" against Content because they know to "game the game." I'd bet real money that M3nt or Valefort or Nastya and/or many more could play a severely gimped build and still rofflestomp the Content, with or without the avenues of powercreep that are now available.

My point is that this Server was supposedly turning toward more and "elevated" focus on Role-play. Role-play shouldn't rely on the power mechanics, meaning, powerful or not, mechanics—role-play should be possible either with +5 gear or limited to +1 gear, elixirs or not and Cosmo feats or not. However, role-play should be defined or guided/determined by mechanics, of the Character Sheet.

The real issue is that Role-play is supposedly "dictated" by our Character Sheets...but this is not as upheld as one may think, and at least in my experience, never "challenged" or supported by the Overseers of RP (you know who I'm talking about!). My experience has been on BGTSCC, nearly consistently over the 10+ years, that no matter what your Sheet states, you can RP whatever you want.

So with that paradigm in effect, mechanics are pretty much meaningless. So what if you can now more easily solo the Balor, or the Great White, or even PvP thrash any other build. None of that even remotely makes Role-play better. What the value(less) paradigm of mechanics does not offer is any aspect of reputation, or agency, of capability or uniqueness...because there is no enforcement, or recognition. All those numbers are supposed to define your Character, but guess what, no one cares!

What I am saying is making Role-play more important and more integral to the experience of BGTSCC requires a paradigm shift where mechanics via the Character Sheet are actually enforced, maybe better said, supported. In the very least, confronted.