Guild Stagnation

[Tekill]

I was thinking back to when I was a new player. I had a hin abyssal pacted warlock from Calimport– a variation of the Clatus build. She had a convoluted back story but in essence she was your typical sassy halfling.

I remember it was fairly easy getting a group together to run, Gnolls, Goblins, Orc areas. I remember being told that I would soon be ready for Xvarts. I had no idea what a 'Xvart' was but I was excited to find out. Leveling, exploring and the looming danger of potential pvp were the reasons why I liked the game in the beginning. DM events were rare at the time but also fun.

I had zero interest in guilds. Actually I had less then a zero interest...negative interest. That was because back then, I remember thinking some of the players on the server were often a bit cliquey. So my impression of a lot of guilds was that they were simply for experienced members only. I did not register that as a negative thing, just a reality and much like real life is.

I remember this one character Ivan, the druid. I do not know if that player is still around but he was a popular character that often had a group of players following him around- I perceived it as almost an entourage. I do not recall if he was part of a guild or not (druid circle?). He was so often the center of attention, yet he still would take the time to RP with newbs such as myself. Nothing major- even just to yell at us to stop hunting lizardmen. Now, on the other hand, his entourage did not even acknowledge my existence.

This says a lot about what kind of an impact we can make for new players in the game as individuals. Especially when the point of the guild tends to be one of exclusivity.

As a newb player my experience with Ivan's entourage, gave me the impression that the organized groups and guilds were for experienced players who had been around the block a few times. There were a lot of players that did not know or cared that I existed but there were still a few that would make the time to RP (even it was conflict RP). As I remember it, getting involved in a guild was a future plan. Something to do when I understood the game better. Plus, I wanted to make sure I was going to join a guild that was not a clique and was inclusive. I simply did not have the time for pretentious, arrogant, elitists (especially video game RP elitists).

I will say that as a new player I discovered right away that the exception to my guild belief was Phoenix Company. That guild has always actively searched for and supported new players to include and accepted into their ranks. This server needs more guilds like Phoenix Company. Cheers to Phoenix Company!

Now I am one of those experienced players and although I am not on as much as I used to be and the game has since changed a fair bit, I say it is still important to try to follow Ivan's and Phoenix Company's lead. It is not always possible, but if you come across other players try to shamelessly barge into their world some how. It is easy to be in a guild and even be the centre of that guild and still keep one eye open for newbs.

Just F with other players more. Pop your bubbles.

[Planehopper]

That is nearly the entirety of the point of Rocky Creek and why it was set up - and I think most new players that are in a timezone with Jackard would attest to that. Offering mostly paid work, RP interaction, and in character information is what I spend a huge chunk of time doing. If you're new and sub-epic, I generally try to find a reason to interact.

But thats sort of the point of the OP. As much as I can offer these things, I can't adventure with them, or quest with them, unless its a terribly condescending version where I somehow pretend its normal to watch evil monsters try to murder them while I parry. Even under the guise of training it feels completely ooc.

So it ends up being difficult to encourage new players or low level characters when there just aren't that many, and your advice amounts to sending them off alone to die. Playing a low level alt that can interact as above but also join them? Much more natural.

I just dont think being new here would be all that fun the way things are currently working. You can't adventure with the established characters, you have to schedule DM time to see any (at least in my experience- I havent see a random interaction or event in literal years), and there aren't as many low level characters active at one time to make finding parties easy or reliable.

Huge props to the new players and low level characters that find their way through, but seeing so many come around and fade away because of all of the above doesn't feel sustainable.

[zhazz]

In my opinion the biggest contributor to guild stagnation is the player-base being spread across multiple time-zones. A third of the server is in the US, another third in the EU, and the rest in Australia/Oceanic/Other regions.

This leaves only the weekends as viable times to meet cross-region players. Add to this that many players spend their weekends outside the game, because they get their gaming fix during the week, and reserve the weekends for more important things, such as friends and family.

Fixing the time-zone issue, however, is not possible.



Another contributor is available role-play within a guild. In essence there are three types of role-play possible:

1. Patrol an area (kill monsters)
2. Socializing and meetings
3. Advancing plots

The first naturally excludes lower level characters from some areas, while taking the danger and excitement out of others when with a higher level character. In the end it is just a grind, with a role-play reason behind it. Even so there is still progress made, since the grind amounts to experience, gold, and items for those involved.

The second, while important, rarely contributes anything to the guild. It is good for getting to know other characters in the guild, and sharing information. But it rarely amounts to tangible progress towards a goal. Talking about things is great; action is (usually) better for results. Exceptions do of course apply, such as the White Mask Theater, which is wholly role-play centric.

The last one requires a lot of documentation, and usually becomes a pain in the hiney to engage with because of it, essentially doing twice the work. At least for DM plots. Player-/guild-driven plots not involving a DM tends to be more about honor and trust (or conflict), eventually amounting to making allies or enemies. While entertaining for a while, there is only so much making friends and enemies that can be had before it becomes repetitive to find new ways to reaffirm either. Unlike DM plots, however, there is little to no impact on the server, aside from more people holding hands, or more people raising fists.



While we do have DM plots on the server, it is important to remember that BGTSCC is not a plot-centric server. The majority of the role-play taking place here is personal role-play, with some group role-play too, amounting to a "days in our lives" experience, rather than moving from plot to plot. We are not taking our characters from one plot or exciting moment to another, but are instead playing them day-to-day. As with our own lives outside the game, unless we ourselves, or someone near us add value and meaning to the day-to-day we will eventually get bored, and lose interest in whatever held it before. So it is on the server. That might be a glum realization, but that's the reality of it. We have to create our own fun.

[Lambe]

The above post is an accurate assessment of server rp style. I'd like to bring up a point about meta plots. For the past few years the server has relied largely on meta plots to drive, well...plots. More often than not though, these rely heavily on select few groups that may or may not be involved with guilds, and even if they are, not all of them. The current plots now I feel are the same. A war plot doesn't always attract majority of adventurers. Political plots are the same.

I hope to see more back to basics adventuring plots that has nothing to do with shaping the landscape of the server. Something that van feed different guilds/groups enough to allow them to organically expand on the roleplay themselves, among themselves or with others.

[Tekill]

There are things that can't really be avoided and have been issues since the beginning: Time Zones, level disparity, DM availability. But the game has still chugged along over the years anyways. I bet if we looked back to around 2015 we could find that there were concerns about stagnation and lack of player inclusivity even then.

there aren't as many low level characters active at one time to make finding parties easy or reliable.

This might be the root of the problem.

I tried figuring out what I liked about the game back in 2015 and what I like about it now.
In 2015 I was interested in the game mechanics, exploring and conflict.
In 2022 I am very much not interested in mechanics, grinding/patrolling or the types of conflict now available.
But both then and now I liked the game because it is a social and creative outlet.

The NWN community is shrinking and just like issues with Time Zones and DM availability, etc., it has been a persistent and unavoidable issue all along.

A time might come when the server is just a hang out for a small tight knit group of regulars players. Maybe that is what a majority of these players want.

But a social and creative outlet is this games strength!
I do not believe everyone is willing to leave their comfort zones to improve a newbies experience. But perhaps with the right organizing some of us could find ways to be more creative and social to new players.
Maybe a committee or something like it. Either way, it would take effort.

[klinx]

Commenting on a thought posted earlier about the Phoenix company and how it helped incite players to party and adventure and seemingly imperative for sparking the flame of RP. Whatever happened to them? Are they still around? If not, could someone else pick up the torch and keep running with it? Or possibly a similar but different group to bridge the gaps between old and new, epic and beginning levels.

[ZabelSword]

When I was running Ironfaar I made quite a few dwarf PC's to run with newer players, it worked really well. This also gave me opportunities to view the game with a fresh perspective and try different types of RP. We also had a clan account with donated gear for lower levels which new players greatly appreciated. I also found that if you give players a role in the guild sometimes they run really far with it. Finally, it's important to have at least some level of DM involvement, without that guild is going to get discouraged.

[arakan94]

Today was my first time helping low level PC through area that is too low lvl (Hilltop Ruins, I am lvl 10).. The lack of loot in chests was very unpleasant and combat obviously too (could either kill everything instantly or just tank and wait - very boring). Unless the RP is extremely good, I don't think I'll be doing this again unless it would be location I didn't do myself.

I am not sure why are the level limits in place, but they do feel detrimental. And if they need to exist, at least adjust the gold in chests about.. 10 times more (was getting 60gp/chest - not worth the effort IMHO). If you are worried about high lvl PCs mindlessly grinding starter areas, then maybe add condition that the loot will only appear if in party with someone of appropriate level..

[Rinzler]

If you remove XP level restrictions it won't be level 30's in level 5 areas, it will be level 5's hiding behind their level 30 friends in high CR areas to farm XP. I understand and empathize with the frustration around the limit, but personally I don't think it would be fun to not kill any monsters until I was level 25+. I think the more appropriate solution is to increase XP per kill/spawn rate so that leveling is less like watching paint dry.

[Azroth]

After seeing the few comments of levels, grind and all has nothing to do with the price of tea in china.
The server keeps going over that like as if things depended on that. It's a false statement to believe that loot and xp rates have anything to do with it.
The fact of the matter is, you can very easily even just get to a point of funds as a veteran making wands and stuff. Then from there? Buy low and sell high to create a sustainable income. I done it before in a few places. And you get to pick and chose gear for yourself and others who do the work for you.

All in all. The issue behind alts is not levels. Not gear. In general? The grind is boring once you do it over so many times for years in the same places. I for one really got burnt out of the grind in general for the monotony of the grind areas. Nothing to do with xp gain or loot.

Trust me. I dare you to repeate places like the troll caves and more for effective xp grind and you will want to jump off a cliff.

[klinx]

I think those who find themselves bored with the games monotony should roll a commoner. It changes the way you view the world and it's areas completely. A journey from the Gate to FAI becomes an intense journey, even with skilled guards protecting you. It adds in the level of danger that I think becomes mastered after iterations. Just an idea though

[ZabelSword]

Trust me. I dare you to repeate places like the troll caves and more for effective xp grind and you will want to jump off a cliff.

They have some new areas now.

[Planehopper]

Anyone worried about "effective XP grind" is probably ok with a little monotony. Maybe not.

But in any case, while I appreciate the conversation, this is OP is more about how we can better co-exist - high levels and low levels - specifically in regard to guild work and guild interaction. There have been some good comments to that end.

While I think the party level restrictions and loot cut offs are detrimental in their current form (I dont think its a decision between removing it and keeping it as is, there are plenty of ranges to be tried) , and that probably feeds into this topic, I dont think a general bemoaning of "effective XP grind" has anything to do with guild work and interaction of high and low level characters.

Please keep this headed in the right direction.

[Azroth]

The on topic part of Guild Stagnation is a result of a myriad of reasons.


No one singular reason would be found, I would argue. Most I would say here would likely even provide anecdotal reasons and more.

However? From personal experiences I did notice a lot of things are linked too, thus far. Yet plausibly not the core of the problem, but a part of are...

- Over saturation; people doing the same thing as the next person. Since most groups I have been a part of do the same as the other, just some more effective than the rest.

- Story points; some things on the server are just boring and or unachievable with the current climate. There's a lack of significant characters and or plots, even those whom often thing they are significant at times, yet not always may or may not be as interesting as they may seem. The list goes on. I even ran into a character who once claimed everyone was rather boring around. Which on a OOC level? That's not entirely true, yet not entirely untrue either on a few level at the time frame.

Thus....

My general advice is to, just do something interesting. Even if you end up not allowing some characters into what you do plot wise, but perhaps rather find a way to directly impact opposition in a negative way to get the other side involved. You will receive a lot of OOC flack and hate because... conflict. And takes a lot of guts to do it as you will be hated. However I did notice at least from compliments from others across some places to me, these characters I made that do such? Are perhaps some of their most favored characters for evoking such a reaction from story alone. Which makes them good.

I would advise if at all? Be active in what you do. And separate yourself from the rest. be the underdog, be hated and fight against the odds. It's perhaps the only way to get other guilds involved even if not your own to grant them a wake up call.

Otherwise? Solo it and do the same as above. You don't always need guild. Just a hand full of people to achieve it. Don't even need to be max level to RP out some things in a slow burn build up before light fires. Not smoke, not tensions. Fires.

Conflict is one of the best ways to be active in anything as you will never run out of enemies as they chase you.

[Lambert]

For the last year I have been trying to assist all UD players with their RP goals. I have found Bregan as active, friendly, and fun. Zau’Afin, the guild I am participating in currently has also been active trying to bring a lore based lothite house. I have multiple toons in Zau’Afin and I use them to give a fleshed out house experience for other UD players as well as Zau’Afin players. Zau’Afin is going through a nice growth spurt right now with potential near future growth. We have the potential of becoming a guild with over 6 players soon. Currently we have 3 active and 3 semi active players. If all goes well we may be growing and adding more players. Even if a player isn’t interested in joining Zau’Afin I try to support them. I also try to support the Elistraie players with my toons by adding to their UD experience. My end goal is to have an active house that can provide the Lothie presence and experience for the UD and the surface. We’ll see. This has been a long term project of mine and my guild mates. Zau’Afin has been around for more then a decade. We would love to have a drow bartender too lol.