Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Wolfrayne wrote: 2. So do mages. A good transmute specialist will beat a DC druid.
3. mages can summon and get planar creatures which are just as powerful if not more so. and they have PRC that can enhance them further.
4. i would hope not! (wouldnt mind a gold version so im not running around red all the time worrying about being attacked)
5. Underdark only. No use to me.... how many druids are underdark?
6. Druids can use wands yes but we cant do so shifted thus making us vulnerable..
7. Happy to help out in any way i can if it will speed up the process... im no builder/scripter but im more than happy to spend time testing.

2) I just calculated out Wizard 5/Red Wizard of Thay 10/Blood Magus 9/Archmage 6 (archmage added in wouldn't change the DC here). The build loses 2 schools, requires an app, is very specialized in terms of feats, loses spellslots, and requires this specific class combo. The DC I aquired was 39 [10 (Base)+3 (Epic Spell Focus)+1 (Spellcasting Prodigy)+7 (41 Caster Level)+12 (INT)+5 (Spell level)+1 (Red Wizard Bonus)]. 38 is the DC on my druid. It beats it by 1, and gives up a whole lot to do so (plus you need to write an app). Druid DCs are probably the strongest in the game, because you can have insane DCs and go 30 druid at the same time (which gives you insane defense via dragon shape).

3) A mage does get better summons right off the bat and unbuffed. This is true. But a druid's shapes aren't anything to be scoffed at. A buffed animal companion and a summon with epic conjuration (which a druid has heavy incentive to take as all their best offensive skills are conjuration ones) are probably more competent than mage summons.

4) Ditto!

5) Its not underdark only, you just need dark vision. But its a heck of a lot worse than red dragon shape (no inherant DR, way lower stats, no inherent true seeing). And cave-stalker's AC bonuses don't kick in until you hit caverns (UD or Surface).

6) Druids inability to wands/items pretty much makes up for their opness in other areas. Its probably a shaping druid's biggest pitfall and its also why shaping on druids is so damn godlike. All it takes is a dispel or a breach spell/item to make a druid start to panic. Unless the druid was smart and picked up some extra buffs (then they need to spend time buffing, yada yada).

metaquad4 wrote:6) Druids inability to wands/items pretty much makes up for their opness in other areas. Its probably a shaping druid's biggest pitfall and its also why shaping on druids is so damn godlike. All it takes is a dispel or a breach spell/item to make a druid start to panic. Unless the druid was smart and picked up some extra buffs (then they need to spend time buffing, yada yada).

Hmn... Ever thought of buffing up your animal companion and staying out of Wildshape? You know, using wands and all that jazz with three level dip for Rogue or something? The druid still has those high DC spells, some rather nasty in PvP, while her epic animal companion is already chewing you out in melee?

Wildshape is okay for grinding.

For PvE, that might be ok. It depends really, mobs tend to metagame low HP/low AC targets and go for them first. So that could end badly.

You'll also lose a lot of your sustainability, as dragon druids do a good 30-40 per hit on a none-crit (this is great for both PvE and PvP. PvP fights can be won with your autoattack. On other servers, where save gear is so high and/or easy or available to acquire that all save spells will never impact your character, druids rely on autoattack and are still strong.). As well as that massive 700~ HP pool and your 60-65 (buffed) AC. And the inherent 10 or 15 DR/-.

For PvP, its too easy to focus down the druid when they are outside of shape to do this effectively. Druids don't have any forms of escape (invisibility/ethereal) naturally, so you need items to replicate this (which generally last for a short time). Its not impossible to fight out of shape, but you do hinder yourself to a degree. You do gain epic spells and wand useage, which is a boon. But you DO lose out.

That said, if you go for a +2 WIS race you'll end up with higher DCs. And you CAN use epic spell focus conjuration summons + an animal companion to bodyblock enemies with mass summons. A pair of ethereal boots can help you escape enemies and prepare your attacks. So its not horrible. You just need items to make it work. And you won't have the ability to auto-attack.

Wolfrayne wrote:Ok im not saying druids are bad or anything by any means, i chose to play the class because i enjoy it and yes they can be "jack of all trades master of none" but they can still only really be played one way and im fine with that but if you allow any caster access to shapes that are iconic to druid and require a heavy investment to obtain.... why would you pick the class?

They are masters at DC spells, they are masters at defense. They have almost perfect spotting. And there are more ways to play a druid than just going dragon druid (as I will present below). Dragon druid is just the most grind friendly build.

Wolfrayne wrote:2. So do mages. A good transmute specialist will beat a DC druid.

Not sure that is true: A DC Druid (if you build it as say druid10/hierophant10/hospitaler10) will have 32 CL and 46 wisdom when buffed up. Along with Greater Spell Focus Transmutation, that is a DC of 10 + 17 (wis) + 1 (prodigy) + 4 (epic caster) + 2 (focus) = 34 + spell level. Get that on anything other than a necromancer red wizard shadow adept, and I'll be very impressed.

Even if you go straight up standard dragon druid, you can still fit in greater focus, have 44 Wisdom and 30 CL. You're still at 32 + spell level. And on top of that, you're decently proficient in melee, you have enormous AC and all the DR you need. Not to mention a gargantuan health pool in dragon form.

Wolfrayne wrote:3. mages can summon and get planar creatures which are just as powerful if not more so. and they have PRC that can enhance them further.

Unless the summons have been buffed to ridiculous levels (It didn't seem like it last I checked, except for palemaster), Druid companion remains the best long-duration summon in the game. By quite far. The dragon companion, for instance, is comparable to an average fighter build in power, with 26 BAB. It also has Multiattack, which means its AB decreases by 2 instead of 5 for each attack. So lets say it has 45 AB, it's going to look like this: 45/43/41/39/37/35

Wolfrayne wrote:4. i would hope not! (wouldnt mind a gold version so im not running around red all the time worrying about being attacked)

Why not use the Bronze dragon? I always used that on my gnome druid when I played one. The difference in power of the two is practically negligible.

Wolfrayne wrote:5. Underdark only. No use to me.... how many druids are underdark?

Why is it underdark only? Cavestalker requires darkvision, which all dwarves and planetouched, as well as orc have. The popular Aasimar Druid can easily pick cavestalker, even if aasimar druid is super cheesy.

Wolfrayne wrote:6. Druids can use wands yes but we cant do so shifted thus making us vulnerable..

Fully buffed druid out of shape is hardly "vulnerable". You still have a huge AC due to your spells and 30/adamantine DR due to premonition.

Wolfrayne wrote: Druids are fine the way they are but they are very limited in their style of play even so because the very nature of druids requires they to play a certain way. you HAVE to worship a god and follow their dogma or lose your powers. A wizard can have any kind of story any background capable of doing or being anything they want with an insane number of prestige and such to enhance their abilities.

Take out the mechanical aspect and even from a pure RP aspect they are still limited such is the nature of religious classes tied close to nature in this timeline.

There are NO prestige classes that are worth taking on druid... unless you are dipping in to druid to get buffs.

PvE wise, druids are always going to be superior to non-gish wizards. It's just how the server works. Even if you go something like a non-shifting DC druid like I suggested above, you'll be more than fine.

You can even go for that same split I suggested above and get 16 wisdom and the rest in strength and get a fairly decent non-shifting melee druid. The split I suggested can also drop 2 points of wisdom and get Magical Beast Wild Shape, and some of those forms are pretty decent.

I can go on. The point is that druid has many more options that are perfectly viable on the server. It's just that dragon druid is so ridiculously powerful that people don't think it's worth it.

Complete agreeance with Deathgrowl. +1

Nachti wrote:My plan:
4) And in exchange AC boni from melee classes will not work anymore in polymorphed form.

I was considering an RCR to let me take Magical Beast while we have 100% available. Before I commit, Nachti would you mind explaining what the above quote might mean?

Monk AC will not anymore work in wildshape or polymorph forms. AC from classes like duelist propably will only work in humanoid shapes. That excludes horned devil, even if he has legs and arms.

"Propably" because iam still scripting these things. Bugfixing is currently priorised.

Will the shape change spell be obtaining some fresh new forms like poly-morph self?

Of course.

Well, you can dip into druid to get a nice epic magic beast shape as a cleric and run real fast?

Juvenile dragon seems fair enough, some minor bonus to dragon disciple sorcerers but nothing that gets close to the druid dragon statwise/sizewise?

Hmn... It costs two useless feats, and basically gives you 2-3 feats back to meet prestige class requirements. You know, it kind of works well with: Sorcerer 7/Harper Mage 5/Archmage 10/Arcane Scholar 8 - or - Wizard 5/Harper Mage 5/Archmage 10/Arcane Scholar 10.

Perhaps the 'knowledge' should be replaced with 'lore' in those PRC skill requirements.

I'm thinking more and more about making the TLK file publically available in a human readable and editable format so that people can fix all the typos and minor things like this that I'll really never notice

Is there going to be a non-spellcasting Harper class?

Can do no harm!

No, all Harper PRCs are spellcasting ones to my knowledge.

Technically yes, and no. For example Harper Agent offers spellcasting progression, but does not require pre-existing spellcasting ability.

So, how about home-brewed non-spellcasting class called Harper Spy?