Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2017)

[mrm3ntalist]

32DCs on abilities that can be used every round is not low. The DC cap wont be changed, at least not for now.

[aaron22]

i do not think it is necessary to list all the PrCs with more effective and/or similar effects with no cap on the save or no save at all.

hint: its any of them that you can list.

[chad878262]

i do not think it is necessary to list all the PrCs with more effective and/or similar effects with no cap on the save or no save at all.

hint: its any of them that you can list.

Not really how it works... You need to advise what the PRC is specifically that has a similar effect with "no cap" or "no save at all". What ability are you comparing it to? Assassin Death attack? Go ahead and max INT, but you won't be getting TWF feats and thus will only have 2 sneak attacks per round (and your DC's still won't likely reach 32). How about Man at Arms? DC is 16 + half level + CHA modifier, so at level 30 it's 31 + CHA, but if you go M@A 30 you likely want 21 CON for DR and you need STR for hitting things and damaging things...So your CHA is between 8 and 14, maybe 16 with an item, making the DC 34, and it doesn't force a save every round.

What ability is there that requires a save every round with a DC of 40? I can't think of one.

[mrm3ntalist]

i do not think it is necessary to list all the PrCs with more effective and/or similar effects with no cap on the save or no save at all.

hint: its any of them that you can list.

Which are those?

[aaron22]

ahhh.. chad gets it.

but its your choice!!

not likely any build is gonna max intim and perform on a build that would find OWD most useful. but you HAVE THE CHOICE TO IF YOU WANT

[chad878262]

We did that so you could get to 32 without further maxing out both intimidate and perform which would give no other mechanical benefit. If we went with the 'uncapped' route we would simply have made the calculation:

5 + OWD levels + (intimidate ranks + perform ranks) / 3

There would be no official cap, but you still can get no more than 32, since it is ranks, not total skill points. Difference would be a race with INT penalty is being required to spend a large amount of those skill points if they want to reach the DC of 32. By implementing with a cap we are basically increasing the starting DC, and saying that if you WANT to put more than 36 ranks in perform+intimidate combined you CAN. However, you are not required to, which allows you to spend your skill points on other skills either for more mechanical power (Tumble, Taunt, Spellcraft, what-have-you) or more RP flavor.

In this case putting the cap in allows the player to have more play with their skill points, but even if we didn't go that route, the DC would be artificially capped (as all DCs are, no matter how you min/max there is always a max you can reach).

So are you really arguing for a higher cap or to force more expense from the player to reach the cap? Either way, no matter what PRC/class ability you look at there is always a cap, regardless of if it comes out and says so. We don't have any wizards that reach DC's of 50, for example...because there is simply no way to build to reach a DC of 50.

[aaron22]

bladesinger
blood magus
dervish
disonant chord
dragon warrior
ok im at D's in just our custom PrCs

[aaron22]

oh i see. so i should actually be thanking you for not making it a complete waste of time and just move on and be happy that it isnt total crap. instead of the needlessy and uncharacteristically hampered one it is now.

thanks

[chad878262]

bladesinger

- Freezing field: A bladesinger of 8th level is taught the spell Freezing field. Created ages ago to freeze the area around dragon wings to block and slow them so that they can't fly away this spell greatly reduces the movement speed of everyone in the area of effect and hampers both their offense and defense.

Specifics : Speed decrease : 80, AC penalty 2, AB penalty -2. Fortitude save for halving the effects (cold immunity cancels the effect completely).
DC is 10 + Bladesinger levels + spellcasting ability modifier.
Duration : 1 round per bladesinger level.

With an INT of 30 that is a DC of 30 (10+10+10). 2 points LOWER than OWD and only useable 2 x/day. I suppose the BS COULD go to INT 34 at the expense of STR or DEX, but it would make for a MUCH weaker build and would only make the DC 32.

blood magus

Bloodwalk
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Blood Magus 10th level
Specifics: The blood magus attains the supernatural ability to transport himself over great distances via the blood of living creatures. Once per day, as a standard action, he can seamlessly enter any one living creature whose size equals or exceeds his own and pass any distance to another living creature in a single round, regardless of the distance separating the two. If he desires, the blood magus may attempt to make a "bloody" exit from the destination creature. He bursts forth explosively from the creature's body, dealing 16d6 points of damage unless the target passes a fortitude save. (15 + Class Level + Blood Magus's con modifier)
This ability can be used to mark a person, to travel to this person as if by teleport or to attack a person.
Use: Selected

15 + 10 = 25 + CON Modifier... I don't know many Blood Magus', but taking that class to 20 CON (24 after bear's) would be a mistake...You are a DC Caster so you need to max INT. So it is unlikely the DC is going to reach 32, certainly it will not surpass it.


Do I have to do this for the others or do you want to find an ability that somehow realistically goes higher than 32? Not to mention these abilities are capped with a use per day allowance as opposed to a mode that can be always on.

oh i see. so i should actually be thanking you for not making it a complete waste of time and just move on and be happy that it isnt total crap. instead of the needlessy and uncharacteristically hampered one it is now.

thanks

Or you could be spending your time actually looking at these other class abilities and theory crafting what kind of DC they are likely to achieve. I don't need a "Thank you", but a bit of common decency never hurts. I explained our position and now I have given you 2 examples of other PRC's whose DC for their special ability would be lower than OWD DC, even though those abilities can be used against one or two enemies/groups per day, as opposed to always on. You can be snarky about it Aaron, but it'd probably help your case more if you actually showed an ability of some PRC that hits consistently/significantly higher DCs.

It's funny...I have a bladesinger with a Namarra Neversleep Rapier.... Amazing how often that DC14 sleep works on CR20 mobs. Amazing how often my DC22 death attack on my Assassin makes mobs in to statues too. Went to Ohgrann's with him for a bit today and made quite a few...and the CR there is 26.

[mrm3ntalist]

bladesinger
blood magus
dervish
disonant chord
dragon warrior
ok im at D's in just our custom PrCs

What are these?

[Valefort]

bladesinger
blood magus
dervish
disonant chord
dragon warrior
ok im at D's in just our custom PrCs

Bladesinger : no debuff
Blood magus : no debuff
Dervish : no debuff
Dissonant chord : A debuff ! dissonant chord's class level plus Charisma modifier, to concentration. Right that's huge .. (not).

Dragon warrior : no debuff

What exactly is your point ?

POsts are piling up but if you look at the permanent debuffs those are blackguard aura and warpriest aura and they're just a debuff to saving throws while OWD's inspire fear is -2 AB/damage/saves. The only other point of comparison is Curse song which is not permanent and requires a high bard level, it is however quite more powerful.

What are the chances for that a 20 will mob will NOT be debuffed on just two rounds ?

8/20*8/20 = 16% chance and those are among the most epic mobs we have ...

[aaron22]

you guys are missing the point. these classes have abilities that have x+y+z=DC and they have no cap. some of these have abilities that are far better then what an OWD offers. it is about the cap. as we have talked about over and over and over. there is very little benefit to taking the DC to 42 in PvE. In PvP it makes no difference because only a very low level character or someone who has made a mistake can be effected by fear. Its about the principle. What RP is it that a rogue that has focused alot of training on being the best drummer is only as good and can ever be only as good as a cleric who practices when he can after his devotions. some mystical limitation of talent. it just doesnt make any sense. you said you wanted something that provides versatility. and you do that with limitations?

this is not theory crafting it is principle crafting. theory crafting fell short a long time ago when you all decided this was going to be the orc class. your idea of a paragon of the race.

i have a lot of respect for all of you, but it is hard not to feel like the OWD is the butt of a joke. i dont know any of you and you have always been helpful. there is just too much evidence that supports otherwise.

[Valefort]

In the classes you talk about while the formula is uncapped it doesn't use a skill but an abilty score, and those cannot be pumped as much as skills can. There's no reason to cap them because they can't reach very high DCs, and once again they're not permanent.

Do you want the formula for OWD's inspire fear to be OWD levels + CHA mod ? No cap .. principle respected and a DC so low it will be useless. The 32 cap is clearly not and IC one but just there to limit the power of that feat. Reaching the cap will already take a significant skill investment.

Also I never ever said that OWD is supposed to be a paragon of Orc race, they already have that and it's the Cleric class. Frankly it's a bit difficult for me to read this when I feel that OWD is probably too powerful as it is now (and no i'm not joking, to be extra certain you understand).

This class can be used for various builds, from every melee build to caster builds who can afford it like cleric 25/OWD 5, or Druid, or Shaman. You can fit it almost everywhere, how is that not versatile ?

[Theodore01]

Please, leave the formula as it is now, as i just build my orkie based as it is now and i've not a single skillpoint to spare .
Have yet to see how useful it is.

[Kanada]

When can we get some upgrades to Word of Changing, cuz without Guttural Invocations it is useless.