Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2017)

[Valefort]

How about wait and see, I think it's fine as it is.

[AC81]

@aaron - Surely someone has asked this of you (maybe?), but I'd like to know how you would propose the DC is generated for this ability? Be interesting to hear what you think is a balanced suggestion. Personally, I think it's fine as is but I wouldn't be super opposed to a specialist drummer being able to achieve higher DC's. I liken it to a warlock (who has unlimited uses of an invocation), rather than a wizard (who must pick spells based on situation and whose spells per rest are limited). Therefore, I wouldn't want to see DC's go much higher than what a warlock could achieve (~35ish). This is why I personally think 32 is about spot on - you don't really need to specialise to get a working DC. With all that this class gets, I think for 5 levels it is a very solid pick.

[aaron22]

Ok I am ok with vale wanting to wait and let the model test. That is fine.

My suggestion is to keep the formula exactly as it is. Just without the cap. I have expressed why too many times. I think 32 or 35 is the perfect spot for the dc. Maybe even a 26 if it is sacraficing too much woukd be good. I just want to see the option out there for a rogue, ranger or gish build that could reach higher for rp reasons. The mechanically benefit drops after 35 in PvE. From what I can see.

The cap makes all drummers the same. I hate that. There should be better and worse ones.

[chad878262]

The formula will not stay exactly as it is without a cap. Maxing out Intimidate and Perform would end up giving you a DC42 for an always on ability.

[AC81]

The formula will not stay exactly as it is without a cap. Maxing out Intimidate and Perform would end up giving you a DC42 for an always on ability.

Yeah, that's a bit much. What about DC10 + WD level + Chr mod + (best of base intimidate/2 or base perform/2) ... capped at 35.

So, with a crap chr mod (say chr 10), max would be 31. With a 12 chr (+1 mod, which is easy to get with a +3 item), you'd be back to the originally proposed 32DC. This allows for the ability to be raised through specialisation. Remember, for orcs, it is a little bit trickier to get that charisma up.

[aaron22]

The formula will not stay exactly as it is without a cap. Maxing out Intimidate and Perform would end up giving you a DC42 for an always on ability.

Yeah, that's a bit much. What about DC10 + WD level + Chr mod + (best of base intimidate/2 or base perform/2) ... capped at 35.

So, with a crap chr mod (say chr 10), max would be 31. With a 12 chr (+1 mod, which is easy to get with a +3 item), you'd be back to the originally proposed 32DC. This allows for the ability to be raised through specialisation. Remember, for orcs, it is a little bit trickier to get that charisma up.

and the skill points to allocate for the perform skill which is a class skill only on bard and OWD. you could take a feat, but surface orcs are already a feat down on other races... other than that it looks like a good formula.

why is a DC of 42 prohibited? perhaps an explanation for this would set me and you on the same line of reasoning. I see that because it is a "fear" that only gives a 2 max debuff, that this DC could be 100 and it would still only affect the same creatures that it would at 35.

it is a cool debuff and very thought out ability, but it does not break the game. from what i see, you wanted to make a bard type PrC that has a solid orcish feel and so that players that wanted to have an orc bard are not working outside the lore to fit these two odd pieces together. i am not saying that the OWD should be as powerful as a bard. it doesnt it wont and it shouldnt. what i am saying is that by opening the DC it gives the OWD room to be in builds that a DC cap of 32 would waste. except you can get that cap 32 earlier in your build plan. most builds for the OWD can only reach a DC of 30-35 with the current formula. so that doesnt change much for them.

bottom line. OOC everyone will know the cap. the cap will be assumed. that lowers the RP value of the class and skill to zero when it could be at 100.

[Theodore01]

What about DC10 + WD level + Chr mod + (best of base intimidate/2 or base perform/2) ... capped at 35.

So, with a crap chr mod (say chr 10), max would be 31. With a 12 chr (+1 mod, which is easy to get with a +3 item), you'd be back to the originally proposed 32DC. This allows for the ability to be raised through specialisation. Remember, for orcs, it is a little bit trickier to get that charisma up.

Such a change would screw existing builds, who have split points in intim. and perf. With the full RCR gone, that would just suck.

[Steve]

perhaps an explanation for this would set me and you on the same line of reasoning.

I'm going to explain it. Steve to the rescue!!

Orc War March Part 1: Battle Rhythm +2. Provides the OWD and Group + 2 to AB/DMG. That does equal 4 Epic Strengths Feats, if you want a simple calculation for comparison. Four. Epic. Feats. You also realize this +2 dmg multiplies on a Crit? That is +8 potential dmg for that Orc Weapon Master. Per hit. Result: your Orc and his War Party kill things faster.

Orc War March Part 2: Inspire Fear. 32 DC save every round. That means 99% of enemies are going to fail this save, at least a few times, during an Encounter. That is a given, based on how crap the NWN2 engine is. Granted, those with Steadfast Determination won' fail this Save on a 1, but very few builds with Steadfast have 32 Will save, so still, there is a likelihood they'll fail this save.

Now, what happens if they fail? For a round, they have a -2 to AB/dmg and saves. All Saves!! A -2 AB is like having +2 AC, which is also 2–4 Epic (Ability) Feats. Add to that -2 DMG, that is like having 2/- DR, another Epic Feat gained. -2 Saves is just additionally helpful in other ways...you just need to think about it.

Now, what I would ask here is: how long does the debuff last? 1 round only? Maybe in practice one won't see that much debuffing, but I think based on the how the engine works, and for soooo many mobs—though less PCs—it will be working ALL THE BLOODY TIME.!

Orc War March Part 3: Simultaneously usage. The fact that a OWD gets these 2 feats working constantly and simutaneously, is pretty major. Together, if both Inspire Fear and Battle Rhythm are working, you get a +2 AB / + 2 DMG / +2 AC / +2 DR. Dude!!! That not only equals but bests 8 cumulative Bard-progression levels...for only 5 OWD levels.

Now, for farts and laughs, lets also throw into this PrC the Orders to Charge, which grants 1 minute of +1 AC, 30% fast movement, Furious Charger and Dire Charge (= dmg). Awesome.

I hope you see it now, Aaron. The OWD should be an awesome addition to ANY Orc War party. And if an Orc War Party doesn't have one, I think they deserve to die on the battlefield.

I mean...just imagine if actual mobs had this PrC in them?!?

EDIT: And...what are the possibilities of 2+ OWD working in tamdem?!?!

[aaron22]

steve... I totally get all the details of the PrC. that is not what I called out for as an explanation.

I asked for an explanation on why the stance on the DC cap, when I think it makes little to no difference to the effectiveness while stifling its RP value. if there is a clear and visible reason that I am not seeing (I am not as in the know as vale,chad,mrM) to initiate such a cap then I could possibly gain a better understanding and not continue to try to swim up a stream that I am unaware is flowing much greater than I believe.

[Steve]

I asked for an explanation on why the stance on the DC cap,

Because anything above 32 probably equals a certified bonus using the Feat, whereas under 32, the receiver of this Inspire Fear actually has a chance to Save against it (sometimes).

This is especially critical with combining the -2 Saves debuff with other DC spells (or other On Hit properties that force a Save of any type). To get +2 DC (or, in this case +2 DC by applying -2 Saves) costs a Feat...Alone. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Epic Spell Focus...these all cost a Feat.

Inspire Fear gives pretty much 3 Feats (or more) worth of power, in 1 Feat granted by the PrC, in an attribute that is constantly on, with a decent range, and not only helps the caster, but all within his/her party.

So, setting the Cap higher, only makes the PrC far better than it already is, and that a DC of 32 is GREAT in power mechanics, since it is a constant thing (unlike a arcane/divine caster with a 3x per day casting of a 40s DC). A 32 DC available all day every day without fail is on balance.

Maybe you just don't like THAT balance? I don't always like those "balances" either mate, but hey...its Their world, we just live in it!!

[aaron22]

it is defiantly not that I do not like the balance, but I am not ashamed to say that it could be perceived this way. nor am I ashamed to admit that this will not or has not occurred. I honestly do not see a significant difference mechanically between a DC of 32 and 42. remember this is a fear triggered save. 32 is as vale said. high enough mechanically. I see this like having 65AC vs 70AC. in game PvE that would have very little difference. but that would make a HUGE difference in PvP. the DC of war march could be a million and it would be the nearly same as 32 in PvP. a power plea is NOT what I am doing here.

this actually came about due to me imagining trying to RP with PCs that multiple may have OWD. (IKR a pipe dream) how would I determine which OWD is a better one. do I even want to? do I even need to? with a cap in place there is no function to the RP around the PrC. They are, in a sense, all the same. How much would I love to be able to place one in each "War Band" and have the numbers to support this, but that is unlikely. So I prepare with what I have and what I deem reasonable.

we all know and I do not need to defend that, the numbers dictate the RP. perhaps it should be inverted but it rarely is. so with all OWDs numbers the same, they are essentially watered down in RP. I honestly hate that. this I think was an oversight and to the defense of the team that developed it. a small one. but it is an oversight. I could have just said this portion, but instead of just a generalistic (is that a word?) blast of the design flaw. I offered a solution. it is not the only solution, but the one I think delivers the most value to the RP and the least effect to the powerlevel.

[Valefort]

Two straight bards will have the same inspirations, will they be the same ? Not really.

[Steve]

I honestly do not see a significant difference mechanically between a DC of 32 and 42.

10 pts is a pretty big difference. In my opinion, this would mean the precise difference between Inspire Fear always working versus working enough to be very useful.

I'm pretty sure QC has done the right thing by making sure such a powerful set of Affects don't work all the time. But like I said...they will probably work enough of the time to actually see a significant benefit.

but that would make a HUGE difference in PvP. the DC of war march could be a million and it would be the nearly same as 32 in PvP.

Well, this is an issue—QC does not balance for PvP, unless it is unfair (and...unless they've changed their own QC guidelines).

If you thought that an Orc PrC needed to be made so Orcs could give the beat down in PvP, then...you can with a very wrong assumption, which not surprisingly, has let you down.

A DC of 1,000,000 is SIGNIFICANTLY better than one of 32!! lol. But let me remind you of something: War March is both Battle Rhythm and Inspire Fear. Only the latter has a DC, so with one Toggle, your Orc War Drummer is getting a Constant as well as a Great Possibility for even more Power.

Now, on your suggestion that a 32 DC cap makes for a cookie cutter build. All I can say is: c'mon Aaron! You must put on another set of glasses to look at what your saying, and how that just isn't true.

Because, OWD can combine with a DC Cleric build, or a melee build, or a hybrid build, and each is different in how OWD can make their mechanics better, and...that doesn't even touch how the RP of an OWD can differ.

Anyway...love ya Aaron! :

[chad878262]

C14/H10/OWD3/BG3- CL31, -2 ENEMY saves with potential for -4. Decent charisma and improved divine spell power to potentially increase caster level and DC.

F12/WoD10/OWD5/BG3- EDM with BG aura to help OWD have an effective DC of 34, all the fighter feats with bonus ab/ damage/ dr from OWD and WoD.

B20/DC5/OWD5 - saves, bonus feats, and divine wrath plus rage and OWD benefits.

Very different builds/ characters that all benefit from OWD for different reasons.

[Steve]

F12/WoD10/OWD5/BG3- EDM with BG aura to help OWD have an effective DC of 34, all the fighter feats with bonus ab/ damage/ dr from OWD and WoD.

Yeah, a build like this just wins with having OWD.

But really...imagine ALL the options, together. Like, a group of different builds with OWD! These OWD debuffs STACK on mobs and PCs in PvP...

...what is an Orc if not a reflection of his Horde!!!