Developing the Underdark

[Eldebryn]

*reads broham2's post*
Yeah... know what, I won't even answer that right now. Maybe later...


Regarding DMs , the excuse has either been the low population o the insufficient number DMs and surface priority.

I honestly just don't see an excuse right now. How many events does the surface get each week these days?
If the DMs have reasons, we should either find DMs for whose these reasons do not apply or even better address those reasons and fix them.

[Amal'launim]

I know I haven’t shown my presence on the server or the Underdark for some time, but I still prowl the forum from time to time and… whenever this is brought up, I can’t help but chime in (much to the dismay of the poor readers I’m certain ).
----

Every time a player says “we want more DM attention”, even if they phrase it more politely than my condensed version, I die a little bit inside, and I got a feeling the DMs feel much the same way though they’re much too modest to say it out loud; they’re already devoting hour upon hour of their spare time to appease us, and to be met with those infamous words is poor form by my reckoning.
I for one, am much more inclined to support and cultivate an organization that can thrive on its own. Has its own goals and ways to accomplice it. That’s one of the things I find the most fascinating about the drow, it’s so easy to make an internal hierarchy where the different members strive for one post or the other. As an example I can take House Mori’hyanda, over the course of half a year we had three different weapons masters, two different High Priestess of Lolth and two possible assassination attempts on the Matron Mother and my character got "relieved" as Matron Mother twice.

We didn’t have any DMs supervising the plots, we didn’t know IC or OOC what the others were doing, save for our own informers and spies who might very well be lying to us. And it was fun, boy was it fun… it was actually so amusing that the DMs couldn’t help wanting to participate in the entertainment that was this little House of Spiders.
I occasionally (read thrice) got a tell from DMs saying that they just stood there, invisible, witnessing our rituals to Lolth, our intrigues and infightings, but just enjoyed watching without intervening. Save for a handful of RP XP at the end.

Now, I’m biased. In case you didn’t surmise that from the above, then I’d better be frank about it before someone else tries to point it out instead of addressing my points .
I might be wrong, and others might have their own very valid points as well … but just take a moment to try and understand my way of thinking if you please.

How do you think you’re most likely to attract DM attention?

• By asking for it (however polite you might phrase it) on the forums or DM channel…
• or by making an environment that’s entertaining and intriguing, ready for someone to just delve into.

That’s my three coppers anyway. Make the playground and the DMs -will- notice and they’ll come on their own. Simply because it’ll be fun for them, just as much as it will be for you. Motivation is a powerful factor, there's books arguing for and against either the carrot or the whip so I won't go into that.

[Eldebryn]

Amal, I completely understand your points and your logic as well. I don't accuse the DMs, but it is a fact that over the past few months the UD players have been exhibiting certain activity, increase in population and RP, which in my humble opinion is not really matched by DM attention. I just want to know the reasons that demotivate them from working down there, and perhaps help resolving them.

It may seem odd given the recent Darkwoods event, but when was the last one before that? A nice plot-event from Void that included a dozen surfacers and 3 drow that happened to be there. It was nice, but UD's events in the last 2-3 months can be counted with one hand...

It is indeed more than nothing, but is it actually decent? Most of the UD player's I interact with don't seem to think so.

And now I am told that instead of improving things in their own way, some DMs and players still consider that classic "Forget about UD, just make it a dungeon for surfacers" proposal.

Forgive me if I overreact about that, but UD is the only aspect of the PW I know, and it is one I love. Every time the idea of removing it is mentioned, I simply can't stand by and watch.

There is a limit to what players can do on their own I am afraid. I just would like to see more DMs join in this discussion so we can help each other in regards to Underdark, that is all.

[Rasael]

The reason is that most DM's aren't familiar with the Underdark and have some trouble getting around. It doesn't help that some areas are only called "The Underdark" either - It's not purposefull neglect - they certainly do their best.

We're not talking about a corp of payed professional MMO game masters, these people do this in their spare time so let's not burn them out or expect them to be everywhere at once.

I would encourage it if DM's familiarized themselves with the UD a little more because it would lower the barrier of setting up an Event in the place. Other than that it's mostly their own prefrence and the stories they can come with, which hopefully also includes UD stuff.

From my perspective the key to getting more DM attention in the underdark is taking away the speed bumps.

[Passiflora]

The reason is that most DM's aren't familiar with the Underdark and have some trouble getting around. It doesn't help that some areas are only called "The Underdark" either - It's not purposefull neglect - they certainly do their best.

This is true. At least for me. Besides, I've taken a lot of engagements on the surface already by being the DM of two guilds.

But whenever someone in the UD send me a tell, I have to first find where they are (as I do not know the UD tunnels much. They're a total maze, ugh!) and I can't see a thing too usually even with the DM nightvision. If I turn my gamma up, I get blind when I go to the surface.

There's a few DMs on the team though who know the UD better, but I think there's a timezone issue with them and the most of the current UD community.

[Broham2]

Amal! Glad to see you lurking about, ya spider-kisser! I agree with your post and hold your house as a perfect example of player-led initiatives. I think the UD was at its peak when your house was active (and as Molag said, there were a few others all around the same time). I know I was at least one of those DMs that watched you work and rewarded the RP.

As far as DM events on the surface.. I've been back a few months and I've only come across 2 events (and they were both in the first week - one was guild related, and not mine). Yeah, they are more active on the surface, but my guess is that events aren't nearly as prevalent as you would imagine them being in either 'realm'. The DMs are pretty tied up with policing/babysitting/managing their assigned guilds.

That said I have seen Wagner on a handful of times and you KNOW when he is on that an event is happening somewhere!

It is likely the timezone difference, I will admit that, but saying that the UD has a 4th or 5th of the players right now is a gross exaggeration in US timezones (at least the later evenings that I play). I've played some of my characters recently and interaction is few and far between. I must be mainly Euro players in the UD right now.

The reasons for DMs not being active (back when anyway) were a lot of the same reasons the surfacers dont play down there. Its dark, its lonely, and its a maze. It can be frustrating for some players, and DMs.

I'd love to be proven wrong, and see these new areas lead to an actually viable UD. I am just saying that in the years since Beta 9 created the UD, its MOSTLY been a failure (with the exception of the periods of RP mentioned in this thread).

And yeaaah, renaming those areas would really help. And giving the DMs a map. Lol. One of you enterprising UD players would do well to create a good quality map of the current UD areas and give it to the DMs. It might help. Seriously.

[Gruk]

Im sorry , it will probably shock some , or not , but i tend to go with broham , dont get me wrong , the recent efforts put in UD are very very cool , the crypt is one of the best dungeon i've seen , creepy , various undeads , big boss , compund is cool to , dridders have been tweaked xp is more fair , Sshamath has been majorly upgraded and its truly fine work.


I totally agree that things are picking up , 7th circle has some momentum , very interesting plot coming up as well , but on the long term , i still see the Ud completely cut off from the surface as lore intends it im sure but gameplay pays the note.

Cant play a drizt o durden but surfaces raids are unwanted and unwelcomed , expect by a few , drow are KOS but not vice versa , making any kind of surfacer-drow RP really hard if not imposible to do unless the guy comes straight out '' hello drow i want to be youre friend dont run and dont kill me please''

90 % of surface player must have an abstact concept of Ud '' yea theres a few guys down there '' while 90 % of UDers are very aware of the surface '' one day i'll be strong enough to go up there ! '' sure mate , you gona go up there and do what ?

on the long run , its my feeling its still like a dormant faction A vs faction B , but it is as if they signed a peace treaty , stay off my lawn i'll do the same , surfacer cant enjoy Ud , Ud cant enjoy surface and and unless a DM supervised plot is initiated RP between both is practicly inexistant . Making it totally feel like 2 seperate servers instead of a really big one like it is.

I may be wrong , i'll keep supporting plots , PC or DM driven , i'll continue working the depth of my char , 7th circle is full of promises so are more discreet plots but i just dont see the underdark becomming REALLY active with the way the setting is.

it would need either much more conflict ( as in pvp, and i dont mean the kind where one side has to PM in advance the targeted vitctim and ask persmission while the other is KOS anywhere anytime ) between surface and ud , or , to be '' absorbed '' by the surface side of the server like broham suggested. if it marks the end of some playable races so be it ... Surely other options could be brought , perhaps Events and Quest could use more of the wide setting BG offers ; surfacer could need to go deep in Ud find somthing an NPC wants and Vise versa ... what if Ragefast needed a basilisk egg instead and the Sshamath wizard needed wyvern eggs ? What if the kidnapped orphan of DM XXXX's quest was sold by salvers to a drow caravan and that she's being held close to Varallas Passage ?

i may be wrong , i often am , but its what i think , i hope its not seen as ingratitude towards evryone that worked in upgrading UD recently , it is as i said really nice and good work , i do hope it will at least attract more players to at the very least make a 2nd char down to explore it and enrich the setting in doing so , but , i will still feel like 2 seperate server im afraid.

[Broham2]

i hope its not seen as ingratitude towards evryone that worked in upgrading UD recently , it is as i said really nice and good work , i do hope it will at least attract more players to at the very least make a 2nd char down to explore it and enrich the setting in doing so , but , i will still feel like 2 seperate server im afraid.

Agreed. Its not ingratitude on my part either. As I said, the areas are sweet! Thats why I would love to see them used more efficiently.

The over-all theme of the server is Baldur's Gate, and the Sword Coast. In its current incarnation, the UD is a pretty big break from that theme (to use the term that was PM'd to me by others).

Sewers added to Sshamath sound cool (I havent seen them yet), but when the centerpiece of our server (Baldur's Gate) doesnt have sewers or any other adventuring chances inside the city - well it seems off to me.

Anyway. Thanks Gruk for your response. I appreciate your willingness to look at it objectively as a UD player.

[Molag__Bal]

And yeaaah, renaming those areas would really help. And giving the DMs a map. Lol. One of you enterprising UD players would do well to create a good quality map of the current UD areas and give it to the DMs. It might help. Seriously.

There are plans to rename the areas with a standardized format, just a matter of someone having the time to do this. I have created a map that we have been using when looking at the UD areas. I'll send it out to the DM's once I've added the new areas that tfunke recently completed.

[Molag__Bal]

Sewers added to Sshamath sound cool (I havent seen them yet), but when the centerpiece of our server (Baldur's Gate) doesnt have sewers or any other adventuring chances inside the city - well it seems off to me.

The centerpiece of the server is the FAI, at this point in time. People still visit BG to run quests, and new characters have to start there. A lot of players start at the FAI from the nexus, completely bypassing BG. On the other hand, every UD character starts in Sshamath, it is the starting point of all but one UD quest, and it is the best place to buy and sell items. To be honest, I don't see any problem with Sshamath getting sewers before BG.

[Broham2]

Sewers added to Sshamath sound cool (I havent seen them yet), but when the centerpiece of our server (Baldur's Gate) doesnt have sewers or any other adventuring chances inside the city - well it seems off to me.

The centerpiece of the server is the FAI, at this point in time. People still visit BG to run quests, and new characters have to start there. A lot of players start at the FAI from the nexus, completely bypassing BG. On the other hand, every UD character starts in Sshamath, it is the starting point of all but one UD quest, and it is the best place to buy and sell items. To be honest, I don't see any problem with Sshamath getting sewers before BG.

So why are we still called Baldur's Gate TSCC? I understand and agree with you.. BG is weak and unused. Thats my point. There is no reason to be there. I tried to stay in town for an hour and a half the other night to RP and saw only a dozen people.. all running for the door.

[Blackman D]

The centerpiece of the server is the FAI campfire, at this point in time.

fixed

the center piece of the surface isnt even a city! thats sad...

[DM Sword]

The timezone thing is a problem for me, as I said before. Also I have started playing in the UD again, which means you might RP with me, but don't realize that you are RPing with a DM (great fun for me btw). As far as DM events go, I hadn't been involved in one in on this server as a player in well over a year, yes a year... However, DM Vendetta was nice enough to do something for the UD players, and for that I thank him. I am no DM Vendetta, his events are usually pure awesomeness, having this guy on your side is phenomenal. I will do what I can, but I cannot promise it will be a PC-changing experience, or how often it will happen.

With that said, please for the love of the underdark stay in character. I saw some really great RPers, and then I saw some folks who spoke OOC half the time. Honestly, no one wants to hear an argument between players, use tells, or just don't argue. Despite that last remark, I'd say that things are going pretty well actually. However, remember that conflict and chaos are trademarks of any UD city, but we should go over the top to make sure we all get along OOC.

[mdchrist]

The UD has alot of possibilities right now, i've noticed alot of players starting to grow down there, and some are new to the drow society but are learning =), i know my gnome isn't happy with some of their actions but hes a gnome and he'll get by or whatever he decides to do depending on the drows, but i've had equal interactions pretty much between surface and UD in the last few weeks with players and dms, and i know the dms are definetly trying their best to get through the mazes to find us (and the lighting down there sometimes can drive a person crazy lol) not to mention though i've had some interesting conversations and actions happening down below to .

I think two nights ago as well i saw 15-18 Chars in the UD at once outta 35 or so players , quite a large number if you ask me ^.~.

[Melisende]

If nothing else, an honest conversation can give one a better perspective.

Broham and Gruk have made some good points. Yet, I cannot agree that giving up on the Underdark and its playable races is the proper course for the server. I happen to believe that the Underdark setting gives the server a darker, more sophisticated feel. For one, the importance of self-reliance gives Underdark characters an edginess that seems to be largely missing on the surface. In a way, being treated as red-headed stepchildren is a fitting thing for Drow as it builds resentment, which, after all, makes for verisimilitude with the lore.

Perhaps seeking direct DM intervention was simply a bridge too far - though DM Sword's offer of support is more than welcome. Let's be clear however, roleplay has always been strongly supported among the UD players on this server. One needs no more proof of that than the widespread use of Drow words in most interactions. The quality may vary but the effort is mostly there.

At this time, between the 7th Circle and some server-wide plot developments there maybe enough afoot to give most UD players a sense of inclusion. That of course does not mean that further events would not be appreciated. Still, I think what might prove most liberating to the Underdark population is if certain surface zones could be made available for entry.

According to Forgotten Realms lore the Drow are known for their raids on the surface, both large and small. Why not create, or utilize a small number of surface areas as free PvP zones where any number of surfacers or Drow can enter with the knowledge that entry means immediate consent to PvP. Just one or two such "grey" zones could provide an interesting existential element to the server without turning it into a PvP free for all. For those not interested in such survival of the fittest, player versus player fighting, they merely need to heed the warning signs and avoid the grey zones, and for those willing to step into the breach, as it were, all is fair once you enter. Could such a thing fly on this server I wonder?