Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Thank you, MR.

stevebarracuda wrote:Some of us on this thread are advocating for a new death system--not no death penalty at all--one that no longer takes XP when you die, but your toon acquires a -2 stat penalty to CON or STR (plus CHA...that's my particular wish as well) each time you die per 24 RL hours...or, server reset. I'd vote for 24 hours, so you can't just log on 1 hour before reset, do some crazy looting, die, then wait for reset to sell your new loot.

I actually find this a really good idea, but I think only -2 for only one stat is vastly understated. Most of my characters won't even notice a debuff to any of those and a lot of builds can play on losing only -2 to their stats. I recommend a -8 debuff to all stats across the board for 24 hours. Have some dump stats? Enjoy being unconscious/paralyzed/find your head too heavy to lift or whatever .

(One of my characters has 8 con. I suppose if she dies, she just stays dead if no one resurrects her )

[edit]
-6 to all stats is probably a bit more sensible and serious as a suggestion.

Exact nature of stat debuff makes me wary to say the specifics after what happened last time. Here I go again.

My complaint against a purely con debuff was that magic users could use their damage mitigation spells to ignore the debuff. As the life span of a magic user is based on how well their spells can keep them from taking damage, since they already have a small pool of hp. Having 100 hp and taking 0 damage is better than having 300 hp and taking 30 damage every round.

This would mostly be valid if wizard could rest shortly after dying to get spells back to go back or else where. If the party raised them in the middle of a dungeon with no place to rest, the wizard might be screwed in this case if they didn't back up their spells. Causing the party to have to baby the wizard, which might be good or bad. Which would make a physical based character better, leading to my next point...

Strength and dexterity champs are physically in a better position to recover from death sickness faster. Their bodies are honed to take some degree of punishment, rather than a frail wizard fighting from the back lines. If physical champs are going to have damage/ac shaved off them, I would hope casters would have some spells shaved off them.

Hybrids would get hit the hardest by a across the board debuff but no one really seems to sympathize with them any way.

None of the stat debuffs should ever go over -4 or you might catch people in death loops. I think 6 is lowest you can have a stat.

Molag__Bal you did bring up a valid point. People exploiting a debuff system like that risk getting caught and receiving some kind of punishment from a DM. It becomes obvious who is doing it on purpose when they do it consistently.

I won't go into merctroop's theories on nwn2 server design, at least for now. Basically comes down to current system has been in place because no one has broken down aspects of it. Carrot and stick mentality is so strong that people are unwilling or unable to think out side of it. Hence reason I'm sure some people will say experience loss on death is only real death penalty.

Nothing about the stat debuff on death instead of a experience means players are not getting punished on death. You die, you take a stat debuff regardless how you were brought back. It makes sense, players don't need to have why they took a stat debuff explained its self explanatory and they can easily use it in their RP.

DM MR wrote:

Simian Approbatur wrote:I am aware that DMs frown upon such lack of role-playing... but considering how it takes place 24/7, frowning is pretty much all they can do.

Okay, well, considering how this is the second time I've seen players publicly flaunt their disregard of the rule against metagaming, the next time someone decides to do it, I'll personally dock five levels from them. *shrugs*

The death system as it is does not encourage role-playing.

Imagine that you die on your level one wizard, you loose hundred points of experience. At that point killing 2-4 monsters brings you right back to where you were before dying, and you simply just continue to grind some more until you reach level two. You repeat this until you reach level 4 and the monsters you've killed thus far now grant you 10 to 20 points of experience each. If your build is not strong, it is a very good expectation of what you will get from grinding monsters until you reach level 30. And things just go downhill from there... you need to kill 10 monsters to get back what you lost, you need to kill 25 monsters to get back what you lost... the number continues grow until you are in the hundres and pulling that off would require several hours of grinding even on a good build.

And if I may paraphrase one discussion I had with Lock,

Lock: Simian, you have an epic character, you know you could find some really epic loot from the epic areas?
Simian: Yeah but... dying just makes it not worth it to me. If I die, I'll have to wait a week to get the exp back from the repeatable quests.

So that brings me to the ability score debuff. It would flip the situation upside down. The higher your level is... the less significant the ability score reduction becomes. And the lower your level is, the more fearsome it is. Imagine that level one wizard eating two deaths in a row. That would be -4 to constitution alone, and with base constitution of 10, our wizard could be down to "2/2 hitpoints" from "4/4 hitpoints" - that is reduction of 50%. And way too harsh.

Hence, the new death system should be progressive and not a static ability score debuff.

Hence I am just suggesting the following progression:
Level range 1-5:
- 50% movement reduction for 10 minutes.

Level range 6-12:
- 50% movement reduction for 20 minutes.
- Reduce all ability scores by 1 until server reset/24 hours.

Level range 13-24:
- 50% movement reduction for 30 minutes.
- Reduce all ability scores by 2 until server reset/24 hours.

Level range 25-30:
- 50% movement reduction for 30 minutes.
- Reduce all ability scores by 4 until server reset/24 hours.

A movement reduction penalty only affects those without access to haste or non-monks. It's not balanced across the board.

Stat reduction of CON not only affects HP, it affects Fortitude saves, as well as Concentration skill checks.

Most importantly, instituting stat reductions on death/knockout, is the accumulation of reductions each death/knockout per 12 hour period. Wanton RP-less grinding/dying/grinding more will come to a halt if this is instituted, which is kinda harsh, and would probably mean BG should re-title itself as a medium-to-hardcore RP server then.

Players might argue that they have limited time to play and stat reductions mean they are penalized from gaining XP during their limited game play, however, if RP XP is also increased for RP activity in Inns and Taverns, along with Death Penalty Stat Reduction, BG would provide equal avenues for gaining XP, whether adventuring or when resting and having an ale with your mates who barely survived the last outing.

Another option would be a custom Death feat applied when you die, that reduces your highest Ability stat by -2 each death. That would then affect each build with precision, because which build doesn't pump their most necessary Ability?

Our game world time is not based on real world time. Any penalties that use time should not have 24 hour real time/server debuff. Basically days can pass in game but you can never shake the debuff unless the server resets.

I don't like the idea of a forced movement debuff. For some PC's even giving them a -1 stat debuff can lead to their PC's holding too much weight. Cough duel wielding rogues cough. If your PC has the strength to move normally even with a strength drain, they should be able to.

-4 all stats at Forty seconds.

At level 30 that would be twenty minutes real time you'd be suffering -4 all stats. Or ten minutes at level 15.

What if going to a tavern allowed players to cut that time down in half.

I remember a while ago a player complained that they wanted their PC to be recognized for the sacrifice they were making by giving free resurrects. Well what if a item existed in game that allowed players to take the death sickness from another player onto them selves.

Err... Steve... about players arguing:

Current situation: A level 20 character grinds for four hours and earns some 2000 points of experience. Due to unlucky dice roll combined with a bit of lag, he dies. The loot gained during those four hours are as follows: 2 mundane half plates, 1 +1 healing kit, total of 543 pieces of inventory gold, 3 garnets and a scroll of magic missile. Hence by dying you loose the experience you have worked for, and frankly you could have just watched paint dry for four hours and achieved just as much.

With ability score reduction: ****, I died. You keep the experience, and you do not have to grind another four hours to get it back. But further grinding would be ill-adviced.

Hence, if players start to complain about limited time... I think they are just **** ***** **** who got more than just few screws loose on their head.

stevebarracuda wrote:Another option would be a custom Death feat applied when you die, that reduces your highest Ability stat by -2 each death. That would then affect each build with precision, because which build doesn't pump their most necessary Ability?

I do like the sound of that, but the penalty has to grow with with the levels. A drop from 16 to 14 is so much more severe than a drop from 30 to 28.

Edit: I took out the nasty words myself... funny, I feel like swearing today.

And why do you need to grind? To not die as often? Hmmm...

Why does nobody notice my suggestion? I suggested random item loss... I think it could be the most fitting. i'Ll quote it if needed.. the third time.

Hoihe wrote:Why does nobody notice my suggestion? I suggested random item loss... I think it could be the most fitting. i'Ll quote it if needed.. the third time.

[ Quin Waynn takes his club, the club he used to scare newbies with as a big bad level 8 PC Fist, and beats Hoihe into a pile of bloody goo. ]

Edit: Notices Hoihe's signature... oooh... you really deserved that. (I was actually starting to feel guilty from posting the above.)

Simian Approbatur wrote:

Hoihe wrote:Why does nobody notice my suggestion? I suggested random item loss... I think it could be the most fitting. i'Ll quote it if needed.. the third time.

[ Quin Waynn takes his club, the club he used to scare newbies with as a big bad level 8 PC Fist, and beats Hoihe into a pile of bloody goo. ]

Edit: Notices Hoihe's signature... oooh... you really deserved that. (I was actually starting to feel guilty from posting the above.)

I know that you are just trying to share some of your wonderful wit, Simian, but let's try to keep things civil and not get overly personal.

Hoihe wrote:Why does nobody notice my suggestion? I suggested random item loss... I think it could be the most fitting. i'Ll quote it if needed.. the third time.

I am guessing that the reason why no one directly addressed your suggestion, Hoihe, is because they did not feel that it merited a response. To be more explicit, losing valuable items simply because one happens to die in a game where dying is a commonplace occurrence would be completely unacceptable to the vast majority of players.

Kenshin wrote:I am guessing that the reason why no one directly addressed your suggestion, Hoihe, is because they did not feel that it merited a response. To be more explicit, losing valuable items simply because one happens to die in a game where dying is a commonplace occurrence would be completely unacceptable to the vast majority of players.

That is pretty much it.

And do consider how pickpocketing has been nerfed so that you can only steal very minimal amounts of gold.

And do consider how very few players are actually carrying as many weapons as my Quin Waynn does:
(Different as in, not a variation of a single weapon type.)

Hoihe wrote:Why does nobody notice my suggestion? I suggested random item loss... I think it could be the most fitting. i'Ll quote it if needed.. the third time.

Given the abysmally horrid loot situation outside of quest rewards for < L15's (more or less), further punishment by taking away that coveted +2 item would just be piling on.

Once you begin to find that rare loot drop or receive a really nice DM reward, it would be very frustrating for many for it to be taken away. Gold is mostly useless after you can afford your end-game gear beyond replacing consumables (pots, bandages, scrolls, arrows, etc.). So perhaps a high-level "death"* penalty of some gold loss is tolerable.

* Maybe two months ago design side there was a big discussion about the death system. One line of discussion was most deaths would be treated as knock-outs, PC would not be auto-Fugued, and the PC be revived using "smelling salts" which were renamed Raise Dead scrolls. If no-one happened by to assist a fallen player, they would have the choice to Fugue themselves and return with the XP loss and perhaps other penalties. The penalty for being knocked out would be a temporary stat-loss similar to those proposed by others here. The discussion was never resolved. Though I personally believe "smelling salts", no-auto-Fugue, and some temporary stat-loss is the best alternative to the current immersion-breaking system.

Simian Approbatur wrote:Hence I am just suggesting the following progression:
Level range 1-5:
- 50% movement reduction for 10 minutes.

Level range 6-12:
- 50% movement reduction for 20 minutes.
- Reduce all ability scores by 1 until server reset/24 hours.

Level range 13-24:
- 50% movement reduction for 30 minutes.
- Reduce all ability scores by 2 until server reset/24 hours.

Level range 25-30:
- 50% movement reduction for 30 minutes.
- Reduce all ability scores by 4 until server reset/24 hours.

I like it.

stevebarracuda wrote:Wanton RP-less grinding/dying/grinding more will come to a halt if this is instituted, which is kinda harsh, and would probably mean BG should re-title itself as a medium-to-hardcore RP server then.

If Simian's idea would make such grinding come to a halt, that is a PLUS for me. I don't think that's harsh at all. The way the server is built right now, you guys are right, it's all about grinding. I really dislike that.
We are an RP server, and we should do anything we can to reduce the Zergzergzerg grinding mentality. The rules only tolerate grinding, but we should never try to encourage it.
Don't jump down my throat as some sort of elitist; I am admitting right here and now that I do grind. Wanton, RP-less, solo grinding. And I still think it should come to a halt.

I don't care one way or the other about grinding, as long as there is some form of RP going on between those grouped. I rarely see or participate in zerg-only groups.

I very much dislike the current XP loss death penalty, so much do that my toons avoid death more than anything, and I don't think I've had a toon die in months. After an hour or two of adventuring, dying, and losing all that XP, is just annoying. I'd much rather deal with a "wound" and a stat reduction for a few hours than to think on the quickest way to re-earn what I lost.

However, I really only advocate the stat reductions if RPing in Inns and Taverns and Guild Halls gets a location-oriented RP XP bump. That way, while a toon takes one penalty, they have still an option to make a players gaming time useful, beyond simply for the "RP sake" of character development.