Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Oh, by the way.

Aelcar wrote:The Drow in Sshamath are 32.000, not 12.000.

From The Underdark, Forgotten Realms source book page 175:

Sshamath (metropolis): Magical; AL LE, 100,000 gp limit; Assets 127,160,000 gp; Population 12047 free (drow 98%, human 1%, deep imaskari 1%); 13385 slaves (goblin 39%, grimlock 19%, orc 12%, ogre 10%, minotaur 9%, human 6%, outsider 5%).

EDIT:
Further...

Aelcar wrote:But it's irrelevant, because we dont really care about FAERUN: we care about SSHAMATH.

No, we care about the drow on the server as a whole. As mentioned in my previous post, we're right in the area where the Eilistraeen (the good drow, you know), are most likely to be on the surface.

As you pointed out, the title is after all Good drow and the SURFACE.

Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark:

Sshamath, population, page 89:
Sshamath is home to more than thirty-two thousand drow, and often another one thousand or so dark elves trade in the city’s markets. Slaves, constructs, conjured creatures, undead, and emissaries of other races bring the total population to over one hundred thousand, although that number fluctuates significantly depending on the availability of goods in Sshamath and strife levels throughout the Realms Below.

Sshamathan society esteems the Art above all else and is ruled by a magocracy. Aside from Lolth’s clergy, the populace pays only token homage to the gods. Sshamathans are both welcoming of outsiders and xenophobic. The city’s culture is steeped in the fear of conquest, yet Sshamath’s continued existence depends on the steady flow of Underdark traders bringing in goods for its inhabitants ’ artifice. This conflict enables all races to visit Sshamath, even traditional drow foes, yet ensures that such visitors are only superficially welcomed and always under great, unspoken suspicion.

The slaves of Sshamath are largely resigned to their fate. In addition to the liberal use of charm magic, the conclave permits visitors to bring in small groups of their own slaves and to occasionally purchase slaves from other cities. These practices ensure that Sshamath slaves are aware that their life here is not nearly as bad as elsewhere.

So, which one ? Both are valid, inconsistency omgz §§!

At the moment there is no post about Sshamath in the "lore of the lands" section, perhaps you should drop the discussion until a choice is made and the lore stated once and for all

Yes, sure. I was just pointing out that some lore said differently than what Aelcar claimed.

Anyways, this isn't a thread about Sshamath. It's actually rather specifically about drow OUTSIDE of Sshamath, which I gave some argument for here:

Deathgrowl wrote:Oh, by the way.

Aelcar wrote:The Drow in Sshamath are 32.000, not 12.000.

From The Underdark, Forgotten Realms source book page 175:

Sshamath (metropolis): Magical; AL LE, 100,000 gp limit; Assets 127,160,000 gp; Population 12047 free (drow 98%, human 1%, deep imaskari 1%); 13385 slaves (goblin 39%, grimlock 19%, orc 12%, ogre 10%, minotaur 9%, human 6%, outsider 5%).

EDIT:
Further...

Aelcar wrote:But it's irrelevant, because we dont really care about FAERUN: we care about SSHAMATH.

No, we care about the drow on the server as a whole. As mentioned in my previous post, we're right in the area where the Eilistraeen (the good drow, you know), are most likely to be on the surface.

As you pointed out, the title is after all Good drow and the SURFACE.

True, 32k is the population in 2nd Edition. Apparently, they greatly reduced it in 3.5. Not that critical for us, but still a bit worse for Eiliastreen: less opportunities. Most likely, the PCs are the only Eiliastreen in the city, with these numbers...

No, the staff did not care about the POTENTIAL DROW in Faerun to regulate Drow PCs' access to the surface (which wouldnt have changed that much, you know. They are most likely to be DEAD, on the surface or in the UD).

I pointed out the title because people are QUESTIONING THE RULES IN PLACE. I am explaining you why they are in place, adn what's the accepted way to perceive a Drow, which should regulate all interactions between UD and Surface. The fact they dont suit your tastes (or whether they suit mine, for that matter) is not very relevant.

The fact they dont suit your tastes (or whether they suit mine, for that matter) is not very relevant.

Remember! Deal with what is posted, not with the poster. Just a general reminder, not directed at anyone in particular.

I'm watching this thread, you know!

So no personal attacks!

Look, this is just going on for too long.

As far as I see it, attacking drow for being on the surface is the rules, and though it makes it harder to be a good drow on the surface, it really should. Drow are more or less evil, as their culture forms them to be non-caring about others in favour of their own goals. But they are not soul-less killers. They just don't care about anything but their own interests and ambitions.

This is cultural. It may be in their blood, but not all drow are evil. . . and though I would nominate myself as the worst 'good drow' RP'er on the server, I will point to the same sentence that is repeated to any grumbling losing side of any argument/event/discussion (to me as well), it is just a game.

And being just a game, one should be allowed to play something that is not stereotypical. I agree wholeheartedly that there should not be more good drow than bad. That would be a distaste to the setting and be a nightmare for any DM to compensate.

But if that is what people would want to play, then something would have to be done to accommodate them. How this could be done, I have not the slightest idea how, and it certainly would not be acceptable to keep them in Sshamath. . . they would still be the playerbase.

Luckily, this is not the situation. We have a very low number of good drow, and this, is a blessing. It makes the situation more as it should be. And being in danger on the surface, that is also how it should be. Drow should not be accepted in civilized lands, since they are the very idea of a nightmare.

But. . . they are dealt with. Drow do deal with unsavoury people on the surface, as per Lisa Sherman's novels. Underhanded and dishonest as they are, they still deal with people. And Deathgrowl is pointing to a very important point, that there may very well be people that have relate-able contacts with a good aligned drow community or heard of the like in the are where we play, which could make them hesitant to attack. Something a traditional drow would capitalize on.

And on the surface, with good aligned drow, one should be careful. One should not be moving openly through areas with a large population and one should expect to be met with suspicion when one inevitable meet someone. Because Drow are generally, and reputedly, black hearted little monsters for a very good reason.

But, moving back to my point. . . Players should be allowed to play something like that. What happens to them, should be a result of how they play (Me included, and my character who got everything she deserved well enough. We learn from it). It has made things harder, but not impossible.

Now, as a good drow, should I be allowed to play on the surface? I'd say as much as I should be allowed to play in the UD. Just have to accept the possibility of being cut down as a monster. Should I have an RP reason to be there? Certainly. As dangerous as the UD is for a good aligned Drow, it is safer than the surface. Down there I can get an RP out. As a good aligned drow, do I have a reason to be on the surface? Yes. Yes I do. Especially when one discovers that there are better deals, more reliable people and wares not available to the normal underdark community.

But again, it is a game. I should be allowed to play a snowflake if I wish.

And I applaud anyone who don't.

(incidentally, my drow have the daylight adaptation.)

Aelcar wrote:I pointed out the title because people are QUESTIONING THE RULES IN PLACE. I am explaining you why they are in place, adn what's the accepted way to perceive a Drow, which should regulate all interactions between UD and Surface. The fact they dont suit your tastes (or whether they suit mine, for that matter) is not very relevant.

They are not my tastes. They are lore. That is my point. There are drow on the surface very, very, very, very near where our server is. The odd adventurous Eilistraeen from Ardeep may VERY WELL come just SLIGHTLY south and thus into our server's territory.

The rules as they ARE prevent this. THAT is the objection. Not how drow are viewed on the surface. But the fact that they can't even BE there.

We need to fix the Light Penalty. This is far more important than twerking about with healpacks or other suggestions to make life harder for everyone. If Light Penalty worked I guarantee that we would see less Drow on the surface, and less Gray Orcs too.

Please make this a priority.

Deathgrowl wrote:Yes, sure. I was just pointing out that some lore said differently than what Aelcar claimed.

Anyways, this isn't a thread about Sshamath. It's actually rather specifically about drow OUTSIDE of Sshamath, which I gave some argument for here:

Hidden: show

Deathgrowl wrote:Fair enough, I will clarify as well:

The most sacred place of the Eilistraeens is the Dancing Dell and the Ladystone in the Ardeep forest. This is on the Sword Coast and very barely outside of the server borders. And the largest concentration of Eilistraeens is directly underneath Waterdeep. For reference:



You see? In this area, eilistraeen surface drow are more likely than anywhere else. It is juuuuuuust outside of our border. See the Misty Forest, there? That's where our border goes. Yep. Yep yep yep yep.

Ohh. So, this is a REQUEST to the staff to let you play DROW as a SURFACE race!!

Sorry, I thought we were discussing serious ALLOWED DROW PCs/Surface interaction.

If it's a request, it's outside my competence.

Now, as a good drow, should I be allowed to play on the surface? I'd say as much as I should be allowed to play in the UD. Just have to accept the possibility of being cut down as a monster. Should I have an RP reason to be there? Certainly. As dangerous as the UD is for a good aligned Drow, it is safer than the surface. Down there I can get an RP out. As a good aligned drow, do I have a reason to be on the surface? Yes. Yes I do. Especially when one discovers that there are better deals, more reliable people and wares not available to the normal underdark community.

This goes the permadeath route, as far as I remember. To... "preserve the integrity of the setting", was the sentence...? Maybe Xzar can help, since he's watching the thread.

EDIT:

Deathgrowl wrote: The rules as they ARE prevent this. THAT is the objection. Not how drow are viewed on the surface. But the fact that they can't even BE there.

YEAH! You posted it while I was writing, but gotcha! We were discussing something else entirely with Kleomenes. I highly doubt it will be accepted (why not Vampires? We have Chaos and a bunch of them in the Cloakwood! Or Liches? Liches are cool, and some of them live in SShamath. A prominent member of the Arcane Brotherhood as well, did you know?), but sure, ask away! I didnt expect a request for a new race in the Tips & Tricks section...

Aelcar wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote:Yes, sure. I was just pointing out that some lore said differently than what Aelcar claimed.

Anyways, this isn't a thread about Sshamath. It's actually rather specifically about drow OUTSIDE of Sshamath, which I gave some argument for here:

Hidden: show

Deathgrowl wrote:Fair enough, I will clarify as well:

The most sacred place of the Eilistraeens is the Dancing Dell and the Ladystone in the Ardeep forest. This is on the Sword Coast and very barely outside of the server borders. And the largest concentration of Eilistraeens is directly underneath Waterdeep. For reference:



You see? In this area, eilistraeen surface drow are more likely than anywhere else. It is juuuuuuust outside of our border. See the Misty Forest, there? That's where our border goes. Yep. Yep yep yep yep.

Ohh. So, this is a REQUEST to the staff to let you play DROW as a SURFACE race!!

Sorry, I thought we were discussing serious ALLOWED DROW PCs/Surface interaction.

If it's a request, it's outside my competence.

No point with the mocking tone, Aelcar...

We ARE discussing serious allowed drow PCs being ALLOWED to be on the surface.

Oh crap! Not this discussion again! I will quote myself here:

Oh (#2) - a good aligned drow thread. *facepalms*

Can you surfacer lot keep your MLP:FiM setting to yourselves and keep the UD out of this please?

You're more than welcome to play one, but please try doing so first with a 30 level paladin class toon on the surface. Being Chaotic Evil from level 1. With all DM events included taking into account your character.

That's what an Eilistraenian drow gameplay is like in it's infancy as there's more to it.

But think yourself this: Given the population of drow not being tainted by Wendonai's blood is about 1.5%, what are the chances of finding one such drow on the surface, with Vhaerunian surface riders, Lolthite killers and Seveltarmians testing themselves against surface foes.

There is no such thing as good drow for the surfacers. Period.

Deathgrowl wrote: No point with the mocking tone, Aelcar...

We ARE discussing serious allowed drow PCs being ALLOWED to be on the surface.

No man, it's not mocking. Allowed Drow PCs LIVE IN THE UD. When I said we were talking about Sshamath, you said "NO! The Surface!!". There's no such a thing as allowed Surface Drow on BGTSCC. I am not mocking in the least bit. This is dead serious.

Servin wrote: There is no such thing as good drow for the surfacers. Period.

[/quote]
I play an Eilistraeen moon elf which is very much alright according to lore, thank you very much. I also play an educated wizard and follower of Mystra who has met several Eilistraeen (NPC and PCs).

If one thing is CERTAIN, it is that there definitely are good drow for surfacers. The right kind of surfacers. For instance OTHER GOOD DROW WHO LIVE ON THE SURFACE.

Aelcar wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote: No point with the mocking tone, Aelcar...

We ARE discussing serious allowed drow PCs being ALLOWED to be on the surface.

No man, it's not mocking. Allowed Drow PCs LIVE IN THE UD. When I said we were talking about Sshamath, you said "NO! The Surface!!". There's no such a thing as allowed Surface Drow on BGTSCC. I am not mocking in the least bit. This is dead serious.

Then you misunderstand my point. I am questioning the rule, because it contradicts and blatantly ignores lore. Sshamath isn't any part of my concern. Ideally, drows should be allowed to start on the surface (WE ARE RIGHT NEXT TO THE ARDEEP FOREST!) if they choose Eilistraee as patron deity. And Kill after RP rules should be implemented to switch out the immersion breaking (or just usual spiteful griefing - "DROWS SHOULD NOT BE HERE LOLZ IMMA OWN THEM") Kill on Sight rule.

If Good Drow are allowed on the surface then we would be overrun by them. Regardless of Lore arguments (and it is quite obvious that everyone has some quote to support their own view) then it has to banned for this reason.

Bloody Salvatore. He has a lot to answer for.