Updated Server Rules - Pregnancy requires DM approval?

[Deathgrowl]

Half dwarf is not available as a player race on our server.

[DM Asgorath]

Half dwarf is not available as a player race on our server.

It doesn't even exist IIRC, unless we are speaking of Derros.

[mireigi]

There has been a lot of debate here about ERP and such, but to be honest, the post below is what sparked this discussion amongst the DMs. We received a complaint because in the original post, the player commented on how their player was pregnant. We received PMs from players upset and offended that a DM would brutally beat a pregnant woman.

Problem was the DM DID NOT KNOW the player was pregnant. To avoid future incidents like this, we started our debate, and you can see, if you go look at the post, that we have been debating this since January, so the decision was not made quickly or lightly.

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?p=500069#p500069

Order at what cost?
The Twelfth Day of Hammer, 1350

Rumour has it that the Captain named Antonio de Coibra was brutalizing some citizens of Beregost accused of being 'disruptive of Order.' He smashed the teeth out of a man, breaking his jaw, and later on sought out another young girl within the place accused of trying to warn the people that guards were coming. The patrons of the inn watched the Captain strike the girl despite her objections that he had misunderstood, dragging her outside, where he proceeded to kick her in the stomach and face as she was lying helpless on the cobblestones. The sadistic entourage of citizens cheered this domestic display of brutal violence, only interrupted by a few of the adventurous persuasion who could not watch the violence, before the limp husk of a human being was finally dragged towards the Temple of Lathander. Even the servants inside who recieved her was horrified at the cruel display of the Amnish forces. Against the initial protests of the Church, the two victims of violence was later dragged outside the city limits.

Her blood would still be smeared on the ground in a macabre trail from the inn towards the temple, where she had been dragged.

OOC Note: This was a DM event.

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[ DM Note: Portions edited for godmoding NPCs. Spoiler placed for oversized image. ]

I will admit i think pregnant players should be forced to include such in there bio to avoid this, just a side note down the bottom wouldn't hurt, as for friendly arms inn Deathgrowl i was more using it as an example me personally i would stick to the camp fire at the gate, but again if your character knows its pregnant and runs of to kill a dragon well thats not really rping and theirs already a rule that punishes such actions.

It's an unfortunate circumstance that DMs cannot view the biographies for PCs, or so I've heard at least. Of course, the majority of RP happen between players, but in this circumstance, the DM had no way of knowing. A /tell from the player in question to the DM running the event, explaining the pregnancy, would have sufficed to discourage the beating of the character.

However, it's a mistake, and mistakes do happen. Should mistakes and misinformation force rule changes that limit player creativity? No. What should happen, is finding a way to handle such situations with greater care. Application for pregnancy, to keep a record, would be a good start.

Complains that you got your Character beat? Please... PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS A JOKE.

The complaint was not for a character getting beat, it was for a pregnant character getting beat. That's a huge and important difference. The PG-13 rules prevent such, so it was a violation of those rules, but a violation that happened due to misinformation.

Back to the core... After reading DM Nephilim post and watching the vote percentage I see we are split in half almost.
Still, democracy wins I guess.

This is not an official vote (a DM didn't create the thread), it's opinion gathering and sharing of viewpoints between players. The DMs might decide to take the results into considering when they lay out the detailed rules for DM supported pregnancy RP (if that is still going to happen), yet I cannot say whether they will or not, it's entirely up to them. All I can do is raise awareness to the issue, promote civil discussion of the issue and hope that someone takes notice for the future and take the wishes and desires of the playerbase into consideration.

[DM Novus]

i see humans claiming to be hags, elf's that say there half dragon, dwafs that say there half dwarf and loads of other crazy things

The main point here is the word CLAIMING.

A PC is allowed to CLAIM they are a half-dwarf half-orc half-elf half-demon half-tortilla chip avatar of Ao, but no PC in-character is REQUIRED to believe them...nor would I EXPECT a level minded PC to believe it.

Saying your PC is pregnant, is the same thing. And considering PCs CANNOT be pregnant based on the mechanical issues of the thing itself in this Game...PCs CANNOT get pregnant.

Which is why the Rules were updated to reflect that:

Pregnancies are forbidden unless directly supervised by a DM, resulting from DM-authorized Role-play.

Furthermore:

As for the solution to those already pregnant: they will be informed their pregnancy has concluded, the child resides with relatives (or a safe zone, lore-appropraite), and since the child is essentially now an NPC, DMs are required to continue with Role-play of such an NPC.

[Arakis]

Half dwarf is not available as a player race on our server.

It doesn't even exist IIRC, unless we are speaking of Derros.

Geez.. I was just joking To lift the mood

This is not an official vote (a DM didn't create the thread), it's opinion gathering and sharing of viewpoints between players. The DMs might decide to take the results into considering when they lay out the detailed rules for DM supported pregnancy RP (if that is still going to happen), yet I cannot say whether they will or not, it's entirely up to them.

I know that
I just assumed that even if the DM team would like to take our opinions into consideration, still those who voted "yes" and other "yes options" would lost the vote, so after going with the majority vote the rule would stay the same. Sorry for creating a misunderstanding.

[Snarfy]

We received PMs from players upset and offended that a DM would brutally beat a pregnant woman.

Problem was the DM DID NOT KNOW the player was pregnant.

... the player didn't bother to inform the DM in tells I'm guessing?

Ever heard the saying "for every rule, there is a fool"?

Ding ding ding!

Characters running around with children and/or being pregnant just opens the door wide open for stupidity and situations like Nephilim described. Not all, but the vast majority of players are no-where near responsible enough to RP anything to do with child-bearing. Child-bearing PC's is a can of purple worms of epic proportions.

Truly, I literally CRINGE and the thought of certain types of PC couples having a child... (especially ones with names starting in T and M. You know who I mean. TERRIFYING.)

For the love of Ned Stark's unborn grand child, stop being so squeemish about everying people.

Complains that you got your Character beat? Please... PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS A JOKE.

I'm against all type of restrictions, but let's say I make a compromise and have pregnant character be forced (after 5 months of pregnancy) to get -10 to dex, vulnerability to all dmg type +50% and constant movement decrease spead (trust me, the wife waddled the hell of the world while being pregnant) and would have to wear a "cursed " piece of clothing while being pregnant(with all those penalties). That would alone discourage grinding while being pregnant, and wouldn't have to ask Dm permission other than to ask for the Cursed blouse of Epic pregnancy or the Rocky boots of waddle.

I hereby vote JCVD1 for president of the server.

[Nomster]

Half dwarf is not available as a player race on our server.

It doesn't even exist IIRC, unless we are speaking of Derros.

Does not exist as a player race on the server but it should not really matter as according to this source, they do not get another template and are considered to be dwarves for all purposes. Dwarves Deep 2.0

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Halfbloods
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today. Mates who respect dwarven customs and traditions are honored for their courage (in entering a strange society), loyalty (to the customs of dwarves) and aid (in preserving the Folk). Half-dwarves are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pure blood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods. If halfbloods mate with pureblood dwarves, the offspring will be a pureblood. If halfbloods mate with another halfblood or a nondwarf, the offspring will be a halfblood.

The Doom Of the Dwarves
The tragic secret of the dwarves is their low birthrate. Fear of clan extinction sometimes drives dwarves to raid human settlements for mates, or even to
deal with slavers. The dwarves are usually in search of human women, because the low dwarven birthrate is thought to be due to low fertility among dwarven women.

The offspring of a human and a dwarf is always dwarven enough to pass for a true dwarf (although it may be a foot taller than other dwarves). Any offspring it may in turn have with a dwarven mate will be fully dwarven, reverting to usual dwarven height. The taking of human mates is the secret salvation of the race referred to by some dwarven elders.

There is a race which is believed to descendent from marriages between dwarves and humans, called D’tarig and detailed in Anauroch 2.0 p31. Dtarig and halfdwarves are not the same though.

I often see people saying that half-dwarves cannot exist but there seems to be plenty lore to support it. Perhaps they get a separate template or something in a latter edition or sourcebook, I did not dig as deep but figured I would post this here at least.

[DM Asgorath]

We received PMs from players upset and offended that a DM would brutally beat a pregnant woman.

Problem was the DM DID NOT KNOW the player was pregnant.

... the player didn't bother to inform the DM in tells I'm guessing?

Oh jeez. Things back then pretty much went this way: Female Character messes up with the guards of Beregost, she gets beaten. The problem is that DMs can't read a character's bio, and apart from that, I had not been told anything, via either OOC tell or IC roleplay, about said character being pregnant. I am not saying that the involved player refrained from informing me with malicious intent - everyone makes mistakes - but still, as a resul of that omission, about half the server was screaming at me for "having gone against the PG 13 rules", "being sick", and whatnot just 5 minutes later.

Still, this isn't the only reason for why we started discussing the rule at the first place. Had this incident been the only one, trust me, we wouldn't have reached this impasse.

[Storm Munin]

Dworcs are supported by lore though, if what R.A. Salvatore writes under WOtC licence is considered lore...

Somehow I am happy we cant play those...

[Narsil]

I have to ask...... why are we still continuing this discussion, then? The DM's have now posted multiple times in this thread. Seems very clear cut to me, at least.

As I read it, the DM's have invested a significant amount of time and thought in this subject, and quite recently, in fact.

It is an issue charged with strong opinions & emotions attached, thus something maybe to err on the side of caution, much like the staff have ruled.

Not that I am trying to stiffle a healthy debate....I just think we are flogging a dead pony here now, and draining yet more of the precious time and energy away from the staff. By the sounds of it, they have little to spare. (And frankly, for the number of PC's this issue would directly impact, I personally would prefer to see DM attention invested on "bigger" matters.)

It does not sound like this rule is to be changed, nor even reviewed (again) anytime soon. Perhaps we should call a truce.........? *shrugs*

[grymhild]

UPDATE::: covered my post about halfdwarves with a spoiler - because while I was writing this, the thread was updated and Nomster had already talked about it...

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half-dwarves... anyone who knows FR should know about the doom of the dwarves (their low birth rate), and half-dwarves being their "secret salvation"

The Doom of the Dwarves

The tragic 'secret' of the dwarves is their low birthrate. Fear of clan extinction sometimes drives dwarves to raid human settlements for mates, or even to deal with slavers. The dwarves are usually in search of human women, because the low dwarven birthrate is thought to be due to low fertility among dwarven women.

The offspring of a human and a dwarf is always dwarven enough to pass for a true dwarf (although it may be a foot taller than other dwarves). Any offspring it may in turn have with a dwarven mate will be fully dwarven, reverting to usual dwarven height. The taking of human mates is "the secret salvation of the race" referred to by some dwarven elders.

Halfbloods

Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today.

Mates who respect dwarven customs and traditions are honored for their courage (in entering a strange society), loyalty (to the customs of dwarves) and aid (in preserving the Folk).

Half-dwarvesî are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pure-blood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.

If halfbloods mate with pureblood dwarves, the offspring will be a pure-blood. If halfbloods mate with another halfblood or a nondwarf, the offspring will be a halfblood.

There are other FR source materials that talk about this too... and playing a half-dwarf is mechanically no different than a dwarf...

http://www.freegamemanuals.com/pdfrpg/T ... esDeep.pdf

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As for playing what's on your character sheet ... I guess that also means no one should have scars that aren't represented on your character, or a burned off face, hetero chromatic eyes (two different eye colors) - nope, and even if you have one-eye, well - can't do that because mechanically only having one eye should give you a penalty that isn't supported by the game engine (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/One-Eye_%283.5e_Flaw%29), same goes for only having one hand, or being insane, or any number of other purely RP characteristics.

Either we get to use our imaginations in a shared creative environment, or we might as well play Diablo or Word of Warcraft.

[Ariella]

half-dwarves... anyone who knows FR should know about the doom of the dwarves (their low birth rate), and half-dwarves being their "secret salvation"

Halfbloods
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today.

Mates who respect dwarven customs and traditions are honored for their courage (in entering a strange society), loyalty (to the customs of dwarves) and aid (in preserving the Folk).

Half-dwarvesî are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pure-blood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.

If halfbloods mate with pureblood dwarves, the offspring will be a pure-blood. If halfbloods mate with another halfblood or a nondwarf, the offspring will be a halfblood.

There are other FR source materials that talk about this too... and playing a half-dwarf is mechanically no different than a dwarf...

http://www.freegamemanuals.com/pdfrpg/T ... esDeep.pdf

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As for playing what's on your character sheet ... I guess that also means no one should have scars that aren't represented on your character, or a burned off face, hetero chromatic eyes (two different eye colors) - nope, and even if you have one-eye, well - can't do that because mechanically only having one eye should give you a penalty that isn't supported by the game engine (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/One-Eye_%283.5e_Flaw%29), same goes for only having one hand, or being insane, or any number of other purely RP characteristics.

Either we get to use our imaginations in a shared creative environment, or we might as well play Diablo or Word of Warcraft.

Dm changed my characters eye color but thats impossible to happen mechanically

[Thorsson]

For the love of Ned Stark's unborn grand child, stop being so squeemish about everying people.

That's "squeamish".

(Just wanted to get this thread back on track before it descended into making sense)

[Deathgrowl]

As for playing what's on your character sheet ... I guess that also means no one should have scars that aren't represented on your character, or a burned off face, hetero chromatic eyes (two different eye colors) - nope

These are model and texture renderings. not your character sheet. Don't confuse them.

and even if you have one-eye, well - can't do that because mechanically only having one eye should give you a penalty that isn't supported by the game engine (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/One-Eye_%283.5e_Flaw%29), same goes for only having one hand, or being insane, or any number of other purely RP characteristics.

Es correcto.

Subject: GENERAL SERVER RULES [MUST READ]

– You are required to play what is on your Character Sheet. For example, no role-playing of another Race if it does not appear on your Character Sheet. In-character (IC) lying and misinformation about your Character's skills, profession and morality is fair and acceptable, but Role-play which does not reflect the Abilities, Feats and Skills that exist on your Character Sheet, is not acceptable.

[NegInfinity]

Don't see how "yes, but with DM assistance" would cause issues to anyone.