Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Steve wrote:

samb123 wrote:

Steve wrote:It's not that I want to RP my characters as powerful as Elminster. I'd be just as happy to RP a Level 5 character in an "epic" adventure, for his CR, anywhere, anytime, and be as fulfilled as any endpoint Level 30 Character +/- Campaign.

So... what's stopping you from doing that? You? Other people?

I've done this 37 times. That number is not an exaggeration nor unrealistic. Level 5 lasts about 2 minutes on this high-XP-per-kill-infinite-monsters-thus-infinite-XP Server/game.

The problem is that on my way to a Level 5 CR area, I have about a 86.4% chance to run into a Level 22+ Character, who is GUARANTEED to offer, after hearing of my destination, a slew of EPIC BUFFS that will make my Lvl 5 toon in a CR 5/6/7/8 Area a literal demigod of wrecking ball strength.

Terrible, right?!?

But that is the thing: just hand off EPIC MAGIC at a whim, because its a Rest and Repeat world where Players are not really making enough effort to be more Lore-centric about Magic.

Well, not ALL Players, but seriously...if we want a little bit more "realism" to the Realm, in terms of Lore, it really isn't all that "elite RP" or difficult to do so.

Paradigms are meant to be changed!!!!

This made me lol. Sometimes it's nice for a caster to offer one of my lower level toons an epic buff. This is happening alot more these days. A few years back I couldn't even get a buff from the casters I was partied with before going into a dungeon, I was lucky to get a heal from a divine caster too.

I try to get the lower levels over with as soon as possible since that content is limited (I'm talking below 8-10) and it's difficult at times just to even travel to Beregost or Candlekeep without dying. Hard to RP when locale is limited that much.

But I get what you're saying.

Common etiquette is for the caster to offer the magic in form of 'blessing' or 'wards'. There should be RP reason to do so. If Elminster wanted to grant a magical boon to someone who caught his attention, he certainly could. Would he? Dunno, ask him lol.

If you don't want the buffs, simply decline I would argue, perhaps you have an RP reason to do so as well. I find it odd that you continuously bump into level 22+ casters offering to buff you without RP reason.

I think the better argument is the concept of time I mentioned before. Limiting magic in social areas like FAI by offering debuffs to players entering the area and preventing casting would ensure limited witness of magic being used, and players transitioning wouldn't be able to cast off so many buffs since the rest time at higher levels is hard and buffs would dispel on area transition. Not game breaking and not punishing. Eliminates the fully buffed twinkling level 12s running into the FAI, which seems to be a good medium all around to me.

Steve wrote:

samb123 wrote:

Steve wrote:It's not that I want to RP my characters as powerful as Elminster. I'd be just as happy to RP a Level 5 character in an "epic" adventure, for his CR, anywhere, anytime, and be as fulfilled as any endpoint Level 30 Character +/- Campaign.

So... what's stopping you from doing that? You? Other people?

I've done this 37 times. That number is not an exaggeration nor unrealistic. Level 5 lasts about 2 minutes on this high-XP-per-kill-infinite-monsters-thus-infinite-XP Server/game.

Oh, man... it's not like you have to go kill monsters, right? Wait...

You mean, that's a choice too?! Dang!

Steve wrote:The problem is that on my way to a Level 5 CR area, I have about a 86.4% chance to run into a Level 22+ Character, who is GUARANTEED to offer, after hearing of my destination, a slew of EPIC BUFFS that will make my Lvl 5 toon in a CR 5/6/7/8 Area a literal demigod of wrecking ball strength.

"No, thanks, (insert other's name), I don't need any magical aid. I'm fine, thanks."

Sounds like it's your choice whether you accept these buffs which so ruin your immersion.


Your entire arguments is negated by the fact that we, as players, have a choice. And to be blunt, I'm a bit sick of stating this in a subtle way and getting ignored. So, here you go... *Spreads hands*

Not here to promote this idea, but to simply add an idea:

What about a DragonLance approach? Casting spells can cause spell casting fatigue in the caster. Though, to counter balance, increase the power of spells, maybe? Or only have the fatigue on spells over a certain level? This way a caster would need to consider what they cast and how many times, without falling prone if they fail like a fort check or something.

Anyway, just a thought as I was sitting at work reading through the forums.

samb123 wrote:
Sounds like it's your choice whether you accept these buffs which so ruin your immersion.

Mix up IC and OOC much?

samb123 wrote: Your entire arguments is negated by the fact that we, as players, have a choice. And to be blunt, I'm a bit sick of stating this in a subtle way and getting ignored. So, here you go... *Spreads hands*

Exactly. We have just as much choice to honor the Setting of Magic in the Forgotten Realms as we have the choice to RP an "appropriate" reaction to it. It's not like you are telling me anything I don't already know...its OTHER PEOPLE who seem to be clueless! lol.

Steve wrote:Exactly. We have just as much choice to honor the Setting of Magic in the Forgotten Realms as we have the choice to RP an "appropriate" reaction to it. It's not like you are telling me anything I don't already know...its OTHER PEOPLE who seem to be clueless! lol.

And you somehow think that changing mechanics will actually change other people? Oh, boy... I wish all I had to do was write some code and people would change!

It'd make my profession so much easier! People would respect what software engineers do so much more if we could rewrite code and they changed!

LOL. I never mentioned anything about code changes or mechanics. Read the OP. Cheers.

Steve wrote:LOL. I never mentioned anything about code changes or mechanics. Read the OP. Cheers.

+1. Steve you savage AF.

Truth is though, Steve has only suggested we increase the RP of the cultural community, which is a notion I second, I still have much to learn, and BGTSCC is a great home for expanding RP horizons. Treating magic in the way OP suggests is in Tips and Tricks section.

I would consider it an RP tip, not a suggestion of change mechanics.

My suggestion was geared towards implementing time taken to reflect travel across long distances, which would change how players treat magic, while reflecting OP's points as well as my own, and not really taking too much away from players either.

Steve wrote:LOL. I never mentioned anything about code changes or mechanics. Read the OP. Cheers.

What you have advocated is essentially forcing people to RP better. And you can't encourage someone to do something they have zero interest in doing. All you can do is change mechanics. And then, because humans work this way, you'll find that changing mechanics won't have fixed things anyway.


Maybe you ought to consider that it's not as bad as you say and that not everyone has to play the way you want them to in order to be better at, or even good at, RP. And, no, you'll never convince me otherwise.

samb123 wrote:What you have advocated is essentially forcing people to RP better.

It is nice to dream...

samb123 wrote: What you have advocated is essentially forcing people to RP better. .... not everyone has to play the way you want them to in order to be better at, or even good at, RP. And, no, you'll never convince me otherwise.

Dude, if you cannot read how the OP that ASKS—not forces—people to read up on Lore in order to better themselves in the context of Role-play in the Forgotten Realms, then....

Deathgrowl wrote:

samb123 wrote:What you have advocated is essentially forcing people to RP better.

It is nice to dream...

Right?!

Steve wrote:

samb123 wrote: What you have advocated is essentially forcing people to RP better. .... not everyone has to play the way you want them to in order to be better at, or even good at, RP. And, no, you'll never convince me otherwise.

Dude, if you cannot read how the OP that ASKS—not forces—people to read up on Lore in order to better themselves in the context of Role-play in the Forgotten Realms, then....

You're not getting it. Not everyone is going to read lore. Best get over it.

I say this as someone who is a huge lore nerd myself.

samb123 wrote:Not everyone is going to read lore. Best get over it.

Well, look who's mister negative pants today!

I've been doing the same thing for 8 years now on BGTSCC...doubt that is ever going to change mate!

Steve wrote:

samb123 wrote:Not everyone is going to read lore. Best get over it.

Well, look who's mister negative pants today!

I've been doing the same thing for 8 years now on BGTSCC...doubt that is ever going to change mate!

Deathgrowl wrote: Besides, magic requires genius level intellect or inborn gift. Not everyone has either of those.

And you can't do everything with magic. Read Magic of Faerûn.

That would be quite incorrect, and the rules actually reflects this.
According to the rules: Casting ability needs to be 10+spell level in order to learn and cast spells from the specific spell level.

10-11 is considered average level.
14 is just under genius level.
15 is genius level.
20+ is in the beginning levels of godlike.

So obviously, the higher the spell level, the less likely the beings who can learn and wield it will become. Unfortunately, because of how the game is, many such beings will an almost common sight - which is a really poor reflection of how it actually is in Forgotten Realms. Some areas have more emphasis on magic, like for instance Thay, and some areas have a really low emphasis on magic, and others it somewhere in between.

Personally I do think its important that spells retain that level of importance and it isn't as trivial as its made out to be, because every arcane & divine spellcaster, eventually run out of their daily power and need to rest, where normally it would take about 8 hours of FULL UNDISTURBED rest, then for any spellcaster who prepares spells it would take more time when also factoring in the individual would need memorize and/or pray for spells, which easily could take more than an hour or more to complete - Eight hours rest followed by 10 minutes per spell level per spell memorization time. Another thing that isn't even factored in, but both arcane & divine spells require spell components and some more specific material components that can very difficult to obtain, or exceedingly difficult. This means that the spellcasters wouldn't just hurl spells around unless it was actually deemed important enough to solve it through magic, firstly because magic is a finite resource thats physically and mentally taxing to cast, secondly there could be costs involved that wasn't negligible and the cost most certainly would increase with spell level. So, spellcasters wouldn't just go about and throw spells around just for the sake of casting spells, so when spells are cast in FR, its generally because the purpose matters enough for it to be solved through magic, because quite often there would be mundane solutions to it. Even spontaneous casters such as Sorcerers and Favored souls, still need to use spell components, so this would be true for them aswell. There is a reason why many mages/wizards/clerics offers their magical services for gold, firstly because they can make a good living that way, but certainly also because they need to when they offer their magical services because otherwise they will run a deficit business, because most spells have an actual cost. The only ones that would care less about this would be warlocks and other invocation-based caster, as their power comes from powerful entities..... well at least that is how its presented in the lore, and the PnP rules are made to support this. The whole reason why the much use of magic would break immersion and lore to a degree, simply is due to the fact that mechanically it in this game supports quantity over quality, because you can keep resting even though the character wouldn't need the rest other than to regain spells and hitpoints...oh yea, and in the 3.5 and previous editions, one wouldn't regain all hit points with one rest, it would actually only be 1+con mod per day of full rest. However, the need for spells is made much higher due to several facts, that monsters are generally tougher, hit harder, have more hitpoints, are more dangerous and they don't reward that much xp compared to their PnP counterparts. Which basically just means, more spells and magical items are needed to overcome them.

...hence one of the reasons I suggested that arcane & divine spells should have a gp cost in relation to it spell level, because it would make spellcasters not just go about and cast spells for the sake of casting or being benevolent, they would for the most part only cast them when the spells are truly needed. Of course this would introduce some other issues on their own, but the result would be that we would see spells being used when it really mattered. It would give all the more reasons for spellcasters to actully charge for their services, which by the way isn't really a possibility to do, because if you want to charge for it, one will just find a more benevolent spellcaster who won't. If spells actually did had a cost associated with it here on the server, then those who're are offering the buffs, wards, etc. would just be that much more benevolent. Personally, I think that spells being so readily available offsets a very delicate balance, which isn't just in the terms of encounters.

Incarnate wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote: Besides, magic requires genius level intellect or inborn gift. Not everyone has either of those.

And you can't do everything with magic. Read Magic of Faerûn.

That would be quite incorrect, and the rules actually reflects this.
According to the rules: Casting ability needs to be 10+spell level in order to learn and cast spells from the specific spell level.

10-11 is considered average level.
14 is just under genius level.
15 is genius level.
20+ is in the beginning levels of godlike.

So obviously, the higher the spell level, the less likely the beings who can learn and wield it will become. Unfortunately, because of how the game is, many such beings will an almost common sight - which is a really poor reflection of how it actually is in Forgotten Realms. Some areas have more emphasis on magic, like for instance Thay, and some areas have a really low emphasis on magic, and others it somewhere in between.

Personally I do think its important that spells retain that level of importance and it isn't as trivial as its made out to be, because every arcane & divine spellcaster, eventually run out of their daily power and need to rest, where normally it would take about 8 hours of FULL UNDISTURBED rest, then for any spellcaster who prepares spells it would take more time when also factoring in the individual would need memorize and/or pray for spells, which easily could take more than an hour or more to complete. Another thing that isn't even factored in, but both arcane & divine spells require spell components and some more specific material components that can very difficult to obtain, or exceedingly difficult. This means that the spellcasters wouldn't just hurl spells around unless it was actually deemed important enough to solve it through magic, firstly because magic is a finite resource thats physically and mentally taxing to cast, secondly there could be costs involved that wasn't negligible and the cost most certainly would increase with spell level. So, spellcasters wouldn't just go about and throw spells around just for the sake of casting spells, so when spells are cast in FR, its generally because the purpose matters enough for it to be solved through magic, because quite often there would be mundane solutions to it. Even spontaneous casters such as Sorcerers and Favored souls, still need to use spell components, so this would be true for them aswell. There is a reason why many mages/wizards/clerics offers their magical services for gold, firstly because they can make a good living that way, but certainly also because they need to when they offer their magical services because otherwise they will run a deficit business, because most spells have an actual cost. The only ones that would care less about this would be warlocks and other invocation-based caster, as their power comes from powerful entities..... well at least that is how its presented in the lore, and the PnP rules are made to support this. The whole reason why the much use of magic would break immersion and lore to a degree, simply is due to the fact that mechanically it in this game supports quantity over quality, because you can keep resting even though the character wouldn't need the rest other than to regain spells and hitpoints...oh yea, and in the 3.5 and previous editions, one wouldn't regain all hit points with one rest, it would actually only be 1+con mod per day of full rest. However, the need for spells is made much higher due to several facts, that monsters are generally tougher, hit harder, have more hitpoints, are more dangerous and they don't reward that much xp compared to their PnP counterparts. Which basically just means, more spells and magical items are needed to overcome them.

...hence one of the reasons I suggested that arcane & divine spells should have a gp cost in relation to it spell level, because it would make spellcasters not just go about and cast spells for the sake of casting or being benevolent, they would for the most part only cast them when the spells are truly needed. Of course this would introduce some other issues on their own, but the result would be that we would see spells being used when it really mattered. It would give all the more reasons for spellcasters to actully charge for their services, which by the way isn't really a possibility to do, because if you want to charge for it, one will just find a more benevolent spellcaster who won't. If spells actually did had a cost associated with it here on the server, then those who're are offering the buffs, wards, etc. would just be that much more benevolent. Personally, I think that spells being so readily available offsets a very delicate balance, which isn't just in the terms of encounters.

Let me fix an error.

Spells take AT MOST 1 hour to prepare. This means your entire list of memorized spells. It can however take shorter, if you do not prepare as many spells as your spell slots allow, but you need at least 15 minutes to get into the right mindset.

Also, it needn't be 8 hours of sleep. As long as one doesnn't move around or exert oneself, it's acceptable as rest.

http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/arcane.shtml