Clairaudience/Clairvoyance

[Boddynock]

Bards detection skills require a fairly hefty investment into the class...

You get +30 using two spells... is that a fairly hefty investment... Really?

Just those 2 spells and a maxed listen and you dont need anything else. Thats how broken this is. The game is on easy more in order to detect a sneak

Quit acting like those are just always up. They are reactive. There is a massive massive difference.

[mrm3ntalist]

Quit acting like those are just always up. They are reactive. There is a massive massive difference.

Active, reactive... still its a huge bonus enough to detect anyone

[Boddynock]

Quit acting like those are just always up. They are reactive. There is a massive massive difference.

Active, reactive... still its a huge bonus enough to detect anyone

And? Sneaks should have classes they cannot get away from. Checks and balances, know your target.

Edit: FYI, I had a sneak get away recently in the two rounds it took me to cast amplify and C/C. He was gone in those few seconds. So don't act like you can't choose to bail and still make it away.

What about keen senses? That is an OP detection feat, period. Why not just take it out of the game?

[Blackman D]

but how is it a check and balance when the classes become "all other"

[mrm3ntalist]

Quit acting like those are just always up. They are reactive. There is a massive massive difference.

Active, reactive... still its a huge bonus enough to detect anyone

And? Sneaks should have classes they cannot get away from. Checks and balances, know your target.

With those two spells on wands that is... everyone... Unless you can give me the numbers why with just those spells ( and an item or two ) a detector cannot easily detect every sneak.

Take a moment and think your replies. Those spells are available to everyone.

[Boddynock]

And for one charge you can get +20 listen for three rounds... that is far from OP... Or, as was the solution for the Holy Sword Wands, make the wands bard only, or just get rid of them.

[mrm3ntalist]

And for one charge you can get +20 listen for three rounds... that is far from OP... Or, as was the solution for the Holy Sword Wands, make the wands bard only, or just get rid of them.

I dont know whehter you are trolling or not able to focus. Amplify lasts for 5 rounds. Long enough to detect everyone IF you know what you are doing.
I will repeat, with those 2 wands, a maxed listen skill you are able to detect 95% of sneaks, For the rest you might need an item to be certain. Anything more than two items and you are in god mode.

Prove to me that the above is wrong, or accept it. Then we can start discussing why one would consider such huge bonus balanced.

[Snarfy]

... for cripes sakes, not another detection VS stealth debate.

Now my Bard/SD/Divine seeker might not be able to detect himself! Oh, wait...

Anyhoo, now that this change has been made... can we take a break from arguing and explain WTF it is exactly? There isn't a single post in this thread that gives us any concrete details.

[Snarfy]

Ok.. I just tried amplify on my bard. WOW. Talk about heaps of will-save spam for everyone. **It hasn't changed. See my following posts.

And, just in case anyone else was wondering, clairaudience/clairvoyance gives you the option to choose a spot or listen bonus, **edit** minus giving the combat log spam-fest and will saves for everyone around the caster.

Yikes.

[Boddynock]

I thought amplify was supposed to have the save, and C/C was supposed to just be one or the other?

[CommanderKrieg]

They should just make truesight see through hips so that I dont have to keep explaining that Hiding supernaturally is different than supernaturally hiding. (I am completely against this, but the debate takes a part of my soul everytime I have it)

[Snarfy]

I thought amplify was supposed to have the save, and C/C was supposed to just be one or the other?

I'm testing both in the nexus. It turns out the save DOESN'T show up in the combat log(and thus spam everyone around) for amplify, but it does for c&c.

[CommanderKrieg]

And for one charge you can get +20 listen for three rounds... that is far from OP... Or, as was the solution for the Holy Sword Wands, make the wands bard only, or just get rid of them.

I dont know whehter you are trolling or not able to focus. Amplify lasts for 5 rounds. Long enough to detect everyone IF you know what you are doing.
I will repeat, with those 2 wands, a maxed listen skill you are able to detect 95% of sneaks, For the rest you might need an item to be certain. Anything more than two items and you are in god mode.

Prove to me that the above is wrong, or accept it. Then we can start discussing why one would consider such huge bonus balanced.

mrm3ntalist is completely correct. Most of my characters with listen just need a couple wands and a scroll and its hipser pound time. While there are a bunch of high bonus hide items like the ring of hiding, there are few move silently items.

[CommanderKrieg]

The dice are loaded against hiders. Maps have special +4s +5s etc for circumstances scripted in for spotting. This works with light sources, terraine, and so on. A dedicated spotter will always see a hipser.

[Boddynock]

I keep hearing the same things over and over in regards to sneak gear. Just give them their gear!