Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

CommanderKrieg wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote:

Invoker wrote: Casters with CL 30 and HiPS will be even stronger, just like every other CL 30+ caster.

Only in PvP. Which doesn't matter. How often do you dispel in PvE?

I have to say in PVE my hipsing wizard does very very well. He survived a wagner event!

((Please wagner do not hunt me down and make sure I dont survive))

Might just be me, but I've had no trouble as a hipsing wizard with high CL.

Yeah, no one is arguing that they're good. But are they better PvE now than before the patch?

I haven't noticed a difference, but I haven't really gone out and tested the limits just yet. He did great at the frost giants the other day.

Deathgrowl wrote:

Invoker wrote: Casters with CL 30 and HiPS will be even stronger, just like every other CL 30+ caster.

Only in PvP. Which doesn't matter. How often do you dispel in PvE?

I don't talk about PvP. It's a balance discussion.

Full CL HiPSing casters will be stronger in PvE respect to before the patch by contrast, since many other common builds will be terrible (ie: your merry EDM FS with WM or EW class will be crap everywhere they dispel).

It's not that they dispel...it's that they DON'T get dispelled, of course.

This is why it's best if you nerf certain classes and feats, and make grinding zones easier. Unfortunately, the player base is unable to accept any kind of nerf whatsoever, it can only be done at server creation.

Why change every dungeon to be the same? Why not have some dungeons or regions very magically influenced with low HP/AC but dispel and the like at hand (e.g. The forest that have fey/druids)? Other areas can be geared to higher AC/HP mobs who might knockdown/pommel strike. These are just ideas but the point is make some areas more manageable by some builds and other areas more manageable by other builds.

Bear in mind also that casters are a pain to play at low levels. Summon creature, which I'm sure is bread and butter for a lot, isn't very helpful when it hardly lasts fourteen minutes even extended. In this vein, the build team could consider mobs for low level areas differently as well. Either that or just do quests until the caster level is viable.

I don't envy the devs in this case. I think the way forward is to measure the strengths and weaknesses of general builds (which will have its own work just figuring that out) and from there decide what balance would look like.

We could just offer Bard and FS as the only classes....

Dagesh wrote:We could just offer Bard and FS as the only classes....

Peasant fighter is still an option?
lvl 3 cap

Classes include:
Farmer
Trader
Dirty Tosser
Homeless

Edit: This idea is too good to give up. Its copyrighted as of now, I'll start building the server, maps, and classes today.


Anyhow, Isnt there suposed to be new fighter feats coming out? I saw a few. The problem I see with simply having a caster buff you as a fighter is the casters themselves can be dispelled (Far more than before). Meaning the fighters should have no problem getting dispelled as well. Until they get to 30 and hopefully they have a CL 30+..

Dagesh wrote:Bear in mind also that casters are a pain to play at low levels. Summon creature, which I'm sure is bread and butter for a lot, isn't very helpful when it hardly lasts fourteen minutes even extended. In this vein, the build team could consider mobs for low level areas differently as well. Either that or just do quests until the caster level is viable.

Breteas posted a guide how to level a wizard fast and easy. Maybe we should sticky that in some place to avoid the "Wizards are a pain to level" comment

CommanderKrieg wrote:

Dagesh wrote:We could just offer Bard and FS as the only classes....

Peasant fighter is still an option?
lvl 3 cap

Classes include:
Farmer
Trader
Dirty Tosser
Homeless

Noble ( application only )
Corrupt guard
Janitor
King's personal butt wiper ( application only, prestige class )
Tax collector

Maximvs wrote:

CommanderKrieg wrote:

Dagesh wrote:We could just offer Bard and FS as the only classes....

Peasant fighter is still an option?
lvl 3 cap

Classes include:
Farmer
Trader
Dirty Tosser
Homeless

Noble ( application only )
Corrupt guard
Janitor
King's personal butt wiper ( application only, prestige class )
Tax collector

Coz the Flaming Fist PCs worked out just fine

To be fair casters rule every NWN server because casters rule D&D. That said, there has always been a heavy caster bias on the BGTSCC team when your custom melee PRC's consist of Breach Gnome, Cavestalker & Fist of the Forest while casters get Blood Mage, Archmage and Shadow Adept lol. You nerf anointed knight but favored soul is perfectly fine.

Then a patch like this solidifies the bias with more useful spell choices then you could even ask for while melee have a couple bad feats to not get. Did pure ranged get anything besides a cover system that grants a permanent penalty? Have fun using manyshot with an even slightly conservative build now. -20 AB on an open field at medium range? Yes please!

You can see the bias when every melee class that could get 1d4 damage had that nerfed to 1, with some of them getting denied their extra feats.

Invoker wrote: I don't talk about PvP. It's a balance discussion.

Full CL HiPSing casters will be stronger in PvE respect to before the patch by contrast, since many other common builds will be terrible (ie: your merry EDM FS with WM or EW class will be crap everywhere they dispel).

It's not that they dispel...it's that they DON'T get dispelled, of course.

But that doesn't make wizards stronger. That makes other things weaker. I doubt an EDM FS will be crap anywhere, though.

And wizards will still run out of spells. They're not warlocks.

Deathgrowl wrote:

Invoker wrote: Casters with CL 30 and HiPS will be even stronger, just like every other CL 30+ caster.

Only in PvP. Which doesn't matter. How often do you dispel in PvE?

As a QC member, I really hope you were joking here.

A well- built fighter who is cleverly geared doesn't need a heap of UMD. On my main I generally only use keen edge and he solos areas that throw dispels around easy. Pick AC feats like Luck of Heroes or Armour Skin, swallow your ego and use a shield. I personally like the dispel fix, but I think the number of dispelling mobs should be reduced. Make it realistic, only cleric/wizard mobs should be throwing out dispels (not yuan ti archers!). I feel like fighters who aren't reliant on buffs actually now have an advantage over other pc's, because until those other pc's hit CL 30 they're going to be hurting going through some areas.
And before anyone even starts complaining about their unique low CL concept character - you chose to be a subpar caster, you should've built to be at least passable with no buffs.

AC81 wrote:A well- built fighter who is cleverly geared doesn't need a heap of UMD. On my main I generally only use keen edge and he solos areas that throw dispels around easy. Pick AC feats like Luck of Heroes or Armour Skin, swallow your ego and use a shield. I personally like the dispel fix, but I think the number of dispelling mobs should be reduced. Make it realistic, only cleric/wizard mobs should be throwing out dispels (not yuan ti archers!). I feel like fighters who aren't reliant on buffs actually now have an advantage over other pc's, because until those other pc's hit CL 30 they're going to be hurting going through some areas.
And before anyone even starts complaining about their unique low CL concept character - you chose to be a subpar caster, you should've built to be at least passable with no buffs.

Nailed it!

These are the things we need to work for. Epic shops for easier access of epic items, designed for meleers.

However even if you are the best builder, there are builds that are subpar. That is teh reason why you dont see barbarians for example. Those are the classes that we need to help, mechanically and that can be done by improving their signature feats, for example rage for barbarians.