Looking over an edge

[Kagger911]

I think you forgot to quote the rest of the argument. Not that "read"(which I'm quite capable of doing, and did) warrants much of a rebuttal, lad(far less than I offered at least, but I'm generous that way).

The fact that you stooped to bringing a player's post count into your argument made believe there wasn't much substance to it. And well what do you know, I was right.

Hidden: show

[Ghost]

DM's resorting to DM's for DM problems. You can already see the problem with that sentence. The players are not involved instead of the few who reported that DM in the first place.

Only if you think the whole DM team is corrupt. This is like not reporting a corrupt police officer to the police because you think they will automatically take the police officer's side.

[Kagger911]

No you should allow the Players to give their opinion on what that DM did wrong or right and then resource a higher teir of DM after that fact or players will continue to believe the DM's are simply siding with each other because the trial is being hidden behind a curtain to the public.

Openly criticizing DMs??? In which world would that suggestion ever work? On an imaginary, perfect world it can work. The internet aint it.

Openly criticizing others ( players or DMs ) will most certainly result in a toxic environment and critisism will be made mostly based on assumptions.

I'm simply giving my opinion. There is no hostility from me nor would there be, this is not my game nor is it my server and this forum is here for a reason. To allow us the players and the DM's to discuss and compromise how the game and the server could improve and opinions matter in that case.

If you don't tell the president he's doing a crappy job, who will? Least do it in pm and explain what's going on instead of calling it out on the spot. Show some respect and you'll get it in return. Nobody is thinking about how the situation can be fixed they think of the most abrupt way to do it.

[Maximvs]

To be fair, team evil does this as well. Solution: go anon on the scry, and if people mysteriously swarm to your location then load up Fraps and call them out on it.

Un huh. To be even fairer, considering the amount of times team good does it and team evil does it, I'd say team good does it -naturally-, where as team evil does it to protect themselves from team good's mobs, or in retaliation after noticing that nothing is really done about it.

Picture people getting banned for metagaming. Then picture somebody taking "fraps" and screenshots of it all, every time a mob of players suddenly appears cuz something was happening and some guy sent a few whispers here and there. How many players would be left on the server? No, you have to understand why very little is done in term of punitive measures. And the joke is, I kind of agree with it. The number is indeed staggering. What I'm blaming is the lack of education toward proper RP. Just like there's a thread for "drow RP etiquette" and "orc RP etiquette", there should be one just for normal RP, along with a server rule to read it.

Don't send tells to others containing viable in game information.
Don't use the scry to find players if it's to give them negative RP.
Don't impose your power on low lvls unless they're asking for a slap in the face.
Even after you receive a sending for help, don't go help your buddy in a pvp match if he's 10 zones away, considering the dozen of miles that needs to be RPed between certain zones.
Make a character that is more interesting than just being all powerful.
etc, etc.

[mrm3ntalist]

No you should allow the Players to give their opinion on what that DM did wrong or right and then resource a higher teir of DM after that fact or players will continue to believe the DM's are simply siding with each other because the trial is being hidden behind a curtain to the public.

Openly criticizing DMs??? In which world would that suggestion ever work? On an imaginary, perfect world it can work. The internet aint it.

Openly criticizing others ( players or DMs ) will most certainly result in a toxic environment and critisism will be made mostly based on assumptions.

I'm simply giving my opinion. There is no hostility from me nor would there be, this is not my game nor is it my server and this forum is here for a reason. To allow us the players and the DM's to discuss and compromise how the game and the server could improve and opinions matter in that case.

Eh? We all give our opinions here. Why you feel the need to highlight it? Its not like someone prevented you from doing it...

[kkrazlite]

DM's resorting to DM's for DM problems. You can already see the problem with that sentence. The players are not involved instead of the few who reported that DM in the first place.

Only if you think the whole DM team is corrupt. This is like not reporting a corrupt police officer to the police because you think they will automatically take the police officer's side.

And if that police officer was reported to face the court wouldn't you want to attend the jury or at the very least be able to see the results present, instead of when that court is already over?

EDIT: If the DM's all attended the jury for another DM then again the problem stands clear that the Players are not attending and there-fore are watching the court through a thick sheet of cemented wall with a small hole poked in the center.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

At level 1 Elminster was just as vulnerable to a stray crossbow bolt as he is at level 30+. Just because our game mechanics don't allow for this sort of thing does not mean we cannot RP it.

But it doesn't mean that we have to RP it either. Personally I think that RPing that a stray crossbow bolt can kill you, when it's not mechanically possible, is almost against the spirit of "play your character sheet". We are not in RL and you cannot always rely on your reactions IRL to advise you on your reactions IC; after all, you are supposed to be playing a role, not yourself in a game. If I wanted to play Elminster as a nervous hypochondriac, then I might be afraid of a stray crossbow bolt, but not otherwise.

Personally I will continue RPing my characters as not knowing they have 300-700 HP and that a crossbow from a lowbie will only do 20-40 damage on a crit. Play your character. Your sheet should represent them. Our characters should not know game mechanics and what is on their sheet IMO.

[DM Golem]

DM's resorting to DM's for DM problems. You can already see the problem with that sentence. The players are not involved instead of the few who reported that DM in the first place.

Only if you think the whole DM team is corrupt. This is like not reporting a corrupt police officer to the police because you think they will automatically take the police officer's side.

And if that police officer was reported to face the court wouldn't you want to attend the jury or at the very least be able to see the results present, instead of when that court is already over?

EDIT: If the DM's all attended the jury for another DM then again the problem stands clear that the Players are not attending and there-fore are watching the court through a thick sheet of cemented wall with a small hole poked in the center.

I should clarify that DMs do not police DMs. HDMs police the DMs. Its not quite the same thing.

[Snarfy]

Picture people getting banned for metagaming. Then picture somebody taking "fraps" and screenshots of it all, every time a mob of players suddenly appears cuz something was happening and some guy sent a few whispers here and there. How many players would be left on the server?

A lot less metagamers, I imagine, and I'm fine with them being given a time-out. Because rarely do players get banned for metagaming, the ban-hammer seems to be more reserved towards players who are repeat rule-violation offenders, and metagaming is a really difficult one to prove, no matter if it's "good" or "evil" players doing it.

Don't send tells to others containing viable in game information.
Don't use the scry to find players if it's to give them negative RP.
Don't impose your power on low lvls unless they're asking for a slap in the face.
Even after you receive a sending for help, don't go help your buddy in a pvp match if he's 10 zones away, considering the dozen of miles that needs to be RPed between certain zones.
Make a character that is more interesting than just being all powerful.

Quoted for truth!

I would also add:
Don't do something IC that you wouldn't normally do just because a DM isn't online.

Which happens so frequently it's not even funny, and brings us back to "stupid" behavior(be it stupid evil or good), like waltzing around in areas where you know the NPC guards are going to hand you your ass on a silver platter(in some cases only hours after PvP'ing or committing a crime nearby), and then acting aggressive IC'ly or initiating PvP some more.

The long and short of it is: if everyone simply adhered to the rules, abided by the setting, and refrained from godmodding, metagaming, or sharing meta-info in any way shape or form, then the playing environment and player Vs. player conflict would be 100 times more enjoyable.

[kkrazlite]

I should clarify that DMs do not police DMs. HDMs police the DMs. Its not quite the same thing.

Your just adding to my point. That's DM's policing DM's just a higher teir of DM appointed to the judge for that lower teir DM. And again the Players are not providing their voice in the matter. Or am i wrong the assume that the players are not suppose to?

[kkrazlite]

I should clarify that DMs do not police DMs. HDMs police the DMs. Its not quite the same thing.

Your just adding to my point. That's DM's policing DM's just a higher teir of DM appointed to the judge for that lower teir DM. And again the Players are not providing their voice in the matter. Or am i wrong the assume that the players are not suppose to?

EDIT: The tree for problems is: "Player Offender" <--- DM Offender <----- HDM Offender <------ Luna <------ "X" There is a big problem with this tree because THE DMS are the ones dealing the DM's if their doing something wrong, or are being the verge of misfortune to those who are looking to see to it that that DM gets a rightful court for what ever the offense might be.

In actual court the police officers do not make up 90% of the jury and there is a reason for that. And there is a reason the court is announced to the public and recorded on national TV.

[V'rass]

Stop apologizing lol. I already told you not to care what other people think of your rp. They don't like it too damn bad. Long as you don't break any rules you are fine... if the other players don't like your rp then screw them. Put them on your enemy list, block them from sending you messages, and refuse to rp with them ever again. You are evil... other people's opinions have as much worth as the opinions of pigs... that being no worth at all. Keep up your excellent rp and to hell with the whiners.

[DM Ditto]

I should clarify that DMs do not police DMs. HDMs police the DMs. Its not quite the same thing.

Your just adding to my point. That's DM's policing DM's just a higher teir of DM appointed to the judge for that lower teir DM. And again the Players are not providing their voice in the matter. Or am i wrong the assume that the players are not suppose to?

HDMs are quite separate from DMs, despite the similarity in term. They are closer to server/forum administrators (if a step removed from Maecius/Luna), with less of a focus on (storytelling) DMing and more in the managerial aspects. HDMs have access to areas that we do not, HDMs discuss topics that we are not aware of, and if a player comes forward to the HDMs regarding issues with a DM, it will only be shared between the HDMs and no one else.

If by "players are not providing their voice", their voice is the reports they send to the HDMs.

[RedLancer]

No? Seems like you went out of your way (by dint of this being the first thread you've chosen to comment on) to make a comment about the player on an OOC level that you didn't initially back up with this insistence of the (btw, negatively-phrased) "attention circus" his death has earned not being warranted, etc.

You guys are really stressed about post counts here. Clarification was made because the comment was misconstrued. To summarize,

Kagger: Bad guys lose, good guys win.
Dagesh: Look at the dead Lathanderite.
Fury: He's not exactly losing; look at all the attention that's coming of it. Apples and oranges.
Chorus: How dare you!
Fury: I didn't say he's a bad guy, just that the situations aren't comparable.
Chorus: How dare you!

Kagger has actually, if I'm not mistaken, gotten a lot of RP himself out of the situation you're picking on, and nobody has told him to stfu.

No one's discussing Kagger's relationship to that particular situation. Rather, the broader topic is "How can I execute the role I want for my character in a way that's positive for the community at large?"

This is a bit less than helpful. It's like...you gotta stop trolling, man.

Misinterpretation has been ably corrected, but there's still this enduring need to defend the role play around a dead PC that no one is criticizing (because people are either misreading or reading with a bias), and it's distracting from the original intent of the thread.

[kkrazlite]

I should clarify that DMs do not police DMs. HDMs police the DMs. Its not quite the same thing.

Your just adding to my point. That's DM's policing DM's just a higher teir of DM appointed to the judge for that lower teir DM. And again the Players are not providing their voice in the matter. Or am i wrong the assume that the players are not suppose to?

HDMs are quite separate from DMs, despite the similarity in term. They are closer to server/forum administrators (if a step removed from Maecius/Luna), with less of a focus on (storytelling) DMing and more in the managerial aspects. HDMs have access to areas that we do not, HDMs discuss topics that we are not aware of, and if a player comes forward to the HDMs regarding issues with a DM, it will only be shared between the HDMs and no one else.

If by "players are not providing their voice", their voice is the reports they send to the HDMs.

Simply stating the differences in jobs and titles is not answering or attending to the comment i gave. But thank you for your answer DM Ditto it is nice that you shed a bit of light on the matter.

The players as a whole are not involved instead of the few who reported that DM in the first place.