Brain-storming the Underdark / Surface interaction

[Jaden]

Hm Sshamath lives from the trade with very different outsiders. It would cut that rp out. Which would be a shame imo. Agreed on the Gate though.

Not much of that exists.

In my experience as a arms dealer it had. We'd buy loot from the UD toons and travel up to the surface to sell.

[Storm Munin]

Never understood why grey orcs arent KoS myself.
The race are deeper mired in evil than drow ever were.
Drow being bred and cursed into current state, orcs being created evil by their evil god.
A goodly orc being about as rare as Deekin.

Nor why the openly horned and fanged tieflings invite to kissing games rather then thoughts of pitchforks and merry bonfires.


At the bottom of it all of us will never agree on everything.
Which is why ive suggested a separate surface area for starstarved drow to hang out in quite a number of times.
Think I can get it implemented if I create it?

[DM Galatea]

To be honest, the current method of enforcement is just in place due to laziness and not wanting to enforce anything.

I think you will need to retract that remark, thank you.

[tfunke]

To be honest, the current method of enforcement is just in place due to laziness and not wanting to enforce anything.

I think you will need to retract that remark, thank you.

I don't think Flasmix meant offense with their comment.

I took it to mean that the current method of enforcement (restricting travel between surface/UD) is in place to avoid having to deal with those troublesome few that ruin it for the rest of us. There's probably 1 bad egg to every good 9 players, sadly its the negative ones that get the attention and so the restricted travel between, was enforced.

[DM Galatea]

To be honest, the current method of enforcement is just in place due to laziness and not wanting to enforce anything.

I think you will need to retract that remark, thank you.

I don't think Flasmix meant offense with their comment.

Then don't describe it as laziness.

It isn't laziness. It is to reduce the amount of adminstrative work DMs have to do to break up the near daily squabbles irresponsible players get themselves involved with, in preference of actual storytelling. Never mind the temper tantrums thrown when players do not like the consequences of their actions, which again, are unpleasant. These tend to escalate to the point where a number of actions taken are legally chargeable, though thankfully those cases are few in number.

This is a large server with limited DM coverage. At peak, there are 75 players running on it and often no more than 2 or 3 DMs online even at peak hours, though time zones vary. Some things need to be self documenting and self reporting. PvP is one - with clear rules for engagement. The Underdark/Surface interaction is another.

For the record, I don't agree with every decision the DM team makes. However, our debate is internal, civil and our biases are all out in the open with each other. We're on the same team. We want whats best for the server and to enjoy our DMing experience. I just want to be a storyteller. Not much else.

Every time I have to help sort or oversee a PvP squabble, tell someone off or report them for being or doing something they aren't supposed to be doing,or do something other than story telling, it is draining my time and my energy. Our rules are in place for that reason.

[Flasmix]

Subject: Brain-storming the Underdark / Surface interaction

Then don't describe it as laziness.

It isn't laziness. It is to reduce the amount of adminstrative work DMs have to do to break up the near daily squabbles irresponsible players get themselves involved with, in preference of actual storytelling. Never mind the temper tantrums thrown when players do not like the consequences of their actions, which again, are unpleasant. These tend to escalate to the point where a number of actions taken are legally chargeable, though thankfully those cases are few in number.

As I stated in the other thread, I and others have had run ins with DMs who are outright hostile when an UDer is on the surface. From my recent experiences and how things are said, I have the belief that DMs do not wish UDers on the surface at all. While I may be wrong, while you may not feel the same way, there are DMs who do feel like that probably. Perhaps it's the same case of the minority ruining it for the majority, hm? You may not be the lazy one, but others are.

[Thorsson]

Well someone ought to be hostile when Drows are on the surface. They certainly were in BG2...

[grymhild]

maybe it's just me, but I see a difference between lore-supported IC hostile RP against a character,
and ooc meta hostile against a player.

[DM Pancake]

Example?

[Storm Munin]

Too many to count when it come to at least early server days between uncaring biased DMs vs roleplaying UD player.
You know the days of xmas grandfathered item for surfacers and full DM support whatever they did.

Example:
I remember a certain swine truly acting like his namesake refusing my wish to at least roleplay out my toon's impending demise beneath the sword of a Fist, along with threats of permadeath if either me or my friend lifted any objections whatsoever about what had transpired leading up to that situation.
Not saying she shouldnt have gotten it in the end, but Id call that being OOC hostile to players.
Anyway, thats so far back in server history that the example shouldnt cause bad blood which are more or less bound to happen if anyone lift more recent happenstances.


Now, if either of you two intend to take this personal please do it privately.

/M

[thids]

Most of my interactions with the drow in the UD on my surface characters have been -awesome-. Every single one of them. Most UD players, especially veterans, will not only accept a surface character down there to RP with, but will embrace them... As long as they RP their presence down below appropriately. On the other hand my encounters with drow on the surface have been mixed. I'd like to say that I am not stereotyping people here, but that's simply not true. I think we are more than aware of what groups of players RP their drow on the surface in a horrid way. PvP mongering isn't even a problem, it's pvp mongering with shitty or no RP excuses, other than "IM A DROW, HURRR KEEEL". Though to be fair, when it comes to pvp mongering and shitty attitudes towards it, we can put most of the surface offenders in one group as well. We just like to pretend that's not how things are. So all in all, it's not a drow specific case. On the other hand I have also encountered plenty of lore appropriate drow on the surface, and had a LOT of very enjoyable interactions with them.


Now if we could get the super awesome fun parts of surface and ud interaction, without the dogshit parts, we'd be golden.

[Blame The Rogue]

to me it comes down to this

there will always be a few bad apples in a bunch

this will always pull dms from storytelling

dms storytelling i feel is when all are most happy, dms and players alike

do we want to open up travel between UD and surface, to add possible rp opportunities, but also raise the instances in which dms have to deal with players that act irresponsibly?

is it worth it? i think this answer will likely remain divided

[Maximvs]

While the proper RP pvp versus the excuse to pvp is a valid point and question, you won't find any real way to discern the two, sadly. It will never be more than an annoying hunch tingling in the back of your head.

[tfunke]

Presuming a vote could be done and a general consensus gathered, what would be the points to vote on, based off the discussion so far?
I only ask because I would like to see a vote set up and I'd be interested to know what the options would be in such a vote.

[flyingchair]

Most of my interactions with the drow in the UD on my surface characters have been -awesome-. Every single one of them. Most UD players, especially veterans, will not only accept a surface character down there to RP with, but will embrace them... As long as they RP their presence down below appropriately. On the other hand my encounters with drow on the surface have been mixed. I'd like to say that I am not stereotyping people here, but that's simply not true. I think we are more than aware of what groups of players RP their drow on the surface in a horrid way. PvP mongering isn't even a problem, it's pvp mongering with (#2) or no RP excuses, other than "IM A DROW, HURRR KEEEL". Though to be fair, when it comes to pvp mongering and (#2) attitudes towards it, we can put most of the surface offenders in one group as well. We just like to pretend that's not how things are. So all in all, it's not a drow specific case. On the other hand I have also encountered plenty of lore appropriate drow on the surface, and had a LOT of very enjoyable interactions with them.


Now if we could get the super awesome fun parts of surface and ud interaction, without the (#2) parts, we'd be golden.

As there's been said a few times in this post, there will always be bad apples, but i have also only had interesting encounters with the underdark denizens after i came back to bg, all of which has played a huge part in my characters progression, and he to those he interacted with.

I have also had an odd experience, and i wouldn't call it bad since we made it work in the end. But i got an instant no response when i told a dm that i would like a teleport to the ud for one of my surface characters that had already been taken to prison there. I explained it thoroughly to the dm but the answer was still no, had to get my underdark contact to weigh in, and after 15 minutes of convincing it worked out.

It feels like the moment you ask for anything that combines the ud and surface in any way, you get these judgemental eyes on you, as if its an ooc crime.