Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

AlfarinIcebreaker wrote:3b30 for me. I don't see the point of b20, but definitely keep 3 levels in class as minimum.

I don't like the idea of having a '1' level dip in a class. It is a sad day when RP is traded out for Diablo based power builds. A sad day indeed, and this -- at its core is what the players want "to be more powerful!" The 3b30 rule is fine with me as long as the level 3 min is not dropped, I fear without it (as was said before) we will open up a huge can of worms.

it saddens me that some cant see the rp validity of 1 rogue. or 1 sd. or 1 fighter. or 1 anything

it only seems to upset, because it may be a "power boost" to this build or that

but that doesn't make the rp any less valid

it's a fallacy that good rp and capable builds cant go hand in hand

but we can agree to disagree

Blame The Rogue wrote:it saddens me that some cant see the rp validity of 1 rogue. or 1 sd. or 1 fighter. or 1 anything

it only seems to upset, because it may be a "power boost" to this build or that

but that doesn't make the rp any less valid

it's a fallacy that good rp and capable builds cant go hand in hand

but we can agree to disagree

It is probably more accurate to say that most don't see the difference in RP between 1 rogue and 3 rogue. Levels are an OOC mechanic, so saying "the rp validity of 1 rogue" is misleading. There is no RP validity to 1 rogue, rather its just rogue or not rogue. This rule doesn't restrict, or in most cases even prevent, multi-classing, it just restricts the way in which you do it, and it certainly does not restrict RP in the slightest.

Well put Boddynock.

From a QC standpoint we can't really consider the RP aspect, but simply put one level dips would significantly alter the balance of the server to the point that it would be far more work than it's worth. I think if anyone sits down and considers any given concept there are very few RP reasons that you should need/want one class level, but can't stomach three.

we can agree to disagree

a very experienced fighter gets hired by some bandits. he's surrounded by a den of thieves. of course some of that knowledge will rub off on him

if he's hired when he's level 27, and stays a while, he'd likely end up with 3 levels rogue

if he's hired when he's lvl 29, and stays but a month, well, chances are, he'll end up with just 1 level of rogue

another example>>

johnny's a rogue. a darn good one. he's in the local thieves' guild. johnny talks guild into hiring younger brother jimmy. jimmy stays about a month, but decides being a thief isn't for him. and with the war going on, he decides to join the militia in the next town down the road

that means lil jimmy, a lvl 1 rogue, now begins training as a fighter or man at arms, or something similar

there are always valid rp reasons for having 1 lvl in a class

Akroma666 wrote:I disagree with changing this rule at all to be honest. Even the 3 by 30. It would dramatically change the power creep...

Pray demonstrate this. What would suddenly become the most powerful build and how would it compare to say FS26/BG4 or Bard26/F4?

A fighter could spent a few weeks in a den of thieves and...just blow a few skill points on Open Lock and Disable Device. But we Players don't do that, cause that would be an unoptimized build choice!!



No matter what anyone says, at the end of the day, taking a Level in a Character is an OOC Player choice. YOU, the Player, choose that...and the convenience in ALSO getting a big ass power boost, is just...convenient. Oops, how nice!!

A one level dip is more egregious than a three level dip, ADMIT IT!!

respectively agree to disagree

glad the thread has people talking though

Steve wrote:A one level dip is more egregious than a three level dip, ADMIT IT!!

In the archaic sense?

There's nothing inherently bad about a dip; it does what it says on the tin. What might be problematic is the whole "Able Learner" thing, or the class itself. But 3b20 fixes neither of those issues.

Specifically, what does the "b20" bit add?

i like rp, as i enjoy being ic

i also like having a capable build that matches my character's rp

and i want as much freedom of choice as possible for everyone, to make these kinds of decisions for their own characters, rather than someone else choosing for them

even if 3 levels per class went away, it wouldn't change my archer or swordsman. for anyone that's curious, neither is a caster, and only the archer has HIPS

it's always my intent to make our home away from home as much fun as it can be for all

especially since, well, you cant find good rp just anywhere. try finding good rp on eq2, wow, or tor. it just isn't there

keep the opinions coming, and remember, it's always a valid option to smile, and agree to disagree

Well, it loses a couple of epic feats for some builds and causes certain combinations to have to suffer through several levels of XP penalties that may otherwise be able to partially or completely avoid the penalty. In addition there are a few builds that can't be done in 3b20 that would be possible in 3b30, non-human, non-fighter WM builds in particular would become a bit less difficult, but there are others (haven't had time to look, but maybe that Assassin/Thaumaturge/AT build mentioned earlier).

I'd be interested if anyone can come up with additional issues that might be brought about by going to 3b30 because as I recall these are the only three real benefits that would be realized by the change. I don't see this as a necessarily world shattering issue, but perhaps someone who would be against changing from 3b20 could provide details of what 3b30 might cause issues with?

@Blame the Rogue - While you have stated your way of playing we do try to cater for many different styles. 3b20, quite simply puts some restrictions on power building that at least keeps them a bit closer to role players that don't plan out their builds and end up less than optimized. As Thorsson states it may not be the best way to go about it, but that is what was done at the creation of the server. While I am not opposed to changing the rule, I also am not in a hurry to do so without consideration for long term impacts. I am not for 1 level dips as they generally just give some key skills so a player can max UMD/Tumble, gain a whole mess of skill points at level 1 and never look back, get some key ability and move on or what have you. Honestly we would end up with a bunch of characters that have 2 levels of Rogue (Evasion), or 1 level of Bard (+1 hit/dmg, skill access) or 1 level SD or whatever. It would not be an RP mechanic for most, it would be for powerbuilding and would cause a much more significant power surge than just changing from 3b20 to 3b30. This is not about agreeing to disagree, it's simply a fact. If we were to open up 1 level dips other areas of server balance would have to be reconsidered/adjusted. It would be a lot of work.

What about 4b30?

Or, what about 1b20 with a Level 20 cap?

What about leaving it as is, because it isn't causing much of a problem as is?

FYI: it has always been that if your Character had RP reason to take 3 levels AFTER 20, a Player could petition to the DM Staff and be granted an exception.

Because, essentially, what is being argued is that 3b20 interferes with RP, where actually, the Server already exists with a way to let RP determine—under DM approval—the course of your Characters progression.

Steve wrote: FYI: it has always been that if your Character had RP reason to take 3 levels AFTER 20, a Player could petition to the DM Staff and be granted an exception.

Has it? I've been here for a few years, and I had no idea about this. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.

Steve wrote:
FYI: it has always been that if your Character had RP reason to take 3 levels AFTER 20, a Player could petition to the DM Staff and be granted an exception.

Yeah sure just like a RP reason to be in the UD......I am sorry but I do not believe it for one moment.

It is interesting how people confuse RP reason—as in a Character actually doing things that are concrete, historical actions that reverb into actually defining Character— with a Character having an idea or "random thought" to do something, in-character.

Any RP of defining investment should be supported on BGTSCC. Don't you realize the Rules are there because the majority abuse the environment, and when that disturbs others, it has to be shut down?