Dispel vs Caster Level

[NegInfinity]

well, it would also benefit Rogue builds since they tend to max UMD
so would always pass the DC30 check.

...At level 30, because they have low charisma. There are classes that can easily beat it 10 levels earlier.

It is not an arbitrary requirement so much as something to benefit the classes that are supposed to benefit from them vs. classes that want to dip rogue/warlock/bard without able learner to get the minimum UMD for wand use.

DC30 for a wand is an arbitrary and illogical requirement in my opinion.

Either keep what engine already has, or implement pnp dc or use something inbetween. you shouldn't be arbitrarily deciding "which build" gets to use a wand, and dc definitely shouldn't go above pnp values, since it just looks like trying to police the builds people make.

If someone can beat a dc, they should be able to use it.

[matelener]

Some spells shouldn't be craftable into wands or brewable into elixirs no matter what CL. Like Divine Power.

If we make a list of all of them, implementing 30 CL wands wouldn't be a bad idea. (at appropriate costs)

[Calodan]

Hard to say.

As far as I can tell, D&D intended wands to be a caster's (treasured?) posession, or emergency device of sorts. Keep in mind, that pnp wands take xp to craft (in addition to cold) and making them takes time. So if we take CL30 level 4 wand, it'take 90000 gold pieces, 3600 xp and 90 days for a (PnP) wizard to make it.

Also, pnp has similar situation with mundane crafted items. It takes weeks to make a mundane fullplate armor (and for a mundane mithral armor it can take two years easily)

Well crazy stupid soul stealing time set aside the usual vague theme is what I see from D&D here. Intentionally so, so we could set our own worlds and imagine from a baseline. Basically for me the D&D Lorebook is more like guidelines than a set of rules per say.....You Savvy?

Not to continue to get off topic completely. I think CL 20 wands would be fine. Not too powerful for those that are not true magic users but also nets them some buffs they can use. That is supposing the wand system can be made to work like the potion and scroll system currently. I do think the 30CL potions may be a bit much but you are not going to drink an offensive spell potion and cast it right?

Some spells shouldn't be craftable into wands or brewable into elixirs no matter what CL. Like Divine Power.

I think divine power is scrolled though so how does that change anything since you can already make a level 15 divine power scroll? Yeah the scroll takes a full round action to use and the UMD check but other than a mage who is going to benefit from this? Rogues? With the uncanny dodge fix they need another source of enhancing their AB here and there anyway. Pure melee will only get a +6 to STR from it because DP only makes up the BAB you do not have up to 30 and gives +6 to STR for Round/Level. At least that is more effective than the completely useless True Strike Spell.

[chad878262]

I made a suggestion, I didn't 'decide' anything.

Either way, I have impression that the thread takes turn towards "let's argue to death and do nothing".

Which is a pity.

Probably wouldn't happen if you countered suggestions in a discussion topic in a productive manner and provided your thoughts on what the limits should be... When someone is stating that it's a pity a thread is turning in to 'argue to death' but spends posts being argumentative rather than moving the discussion forward it comes off as rather counter productive. Should a level 15 Rogue be able to mimic a CL30 wizard? Seems a rather big jump, but carry on.

[NegInfinity]

I made a suggestion, I didn't 'decide' anything.

Either way, I have impression that the thread takes turn towards "let's argue to death and do nothing".

Which is a pity.

Probably wouldn't happen if you....

And now it is my fault. Yay.

Should a level 15 Rogue

They won't be able to. They would be able to trigger wizard's wands which they'd either have to steal or acquire for ridiculous amounts of gold... which can be very hard to come by on this server.

Either way, I think this kind of thinking is wrong. If someone rolls a rogue that manages to keep pretending being a wizard with wands... it means more fun.

[Calodan]

If someone rolls a rogue that manages to keep pretending being a wizard with wands... it means more fun.

I agree. However you and I only approach it from the player perspective. The best we can do is offer our opinion and trust that the QCers and DMers and Adminers can come up with a good balance solution that does not harm the integrity of the intention of the server. I would love 30CL Wands,potions and scrolls even at the cost of your soul to purchase. At 30CL you get plenty of time for the use. It completely changes how spell casters use spells. Mechanical damage spells can be used in wands and such. THe RP server specific spells that can not be made into scrolls, wands and potions can then be put to spell slots allowing for more RP value of the caster and the availability of these things to those who put points into UMD allows RP avenues for them as well.

[Steve]

30 CL potions is great. What is better by having Scrolls of the same CL?!? Potions do not require UMD!!!

So is the problem GETTING YOUR GRUBBY LITTLE D&D HANDS ON THEM?!?

Maybe there could be a NPC created—by a loving and caring Dev —that had potions up to CL 25, and for higher CL potions, it would require RP with another Character. The HORROR!

But the same could be said for scrolls—let's see them up to CL 25 at a merchant, be insanely costly and create a mega coin sink. CL 25 poses a 25% chance of being dispelled by a high CL caster, and Mord's will still wreck a CL 25 spell.

Considering this IS a game, and if Calodan isn't having F.U.N., then what is the damn purpose, if there isn't a little bit of risk vs. reward...and I personally can swallow a 25% risk of...wait for it...EPIC FAILURE!!!

//Not to mention that our Toons never really die when they die, so why get all worked up over this? But that is another topic....

[Calodan]

Considering this IS a game, and if Calodan isn't having F.U.N., then what is the damn purpose, if there isn't a little bit of risk vs. reward...and I personally can swallow a 25% risk of...wait for it...EPIC FAILURE!!!

I do not mind failing. In fact I cut my first DM event teeth in Wagner's events. I just want the skill to be useful. When it is not useful then that takes away from the fun of the game. When we going to meet up with our evils man?

For the record I will say I agree with CL 25 to CL 20 being available for crafting for possibly like the umpteenth time....... Not even saying they need to be in a shop at all either I would fully agree this should be left to players to create the market for them. In fact I am of the belief that all mundane and normal items that are not high tier magical should be player market only. Getting stuff from Maltz is a RP wash. If more newbs had to buy stuff from crafter players that would create a better RP world. OR at least any mundane item of +3 - +4 should at least be player market. High magical items of +3 - +4 with other goodies in shops. +1 - +2 mid tier magical items player ran with the new crafting system in. See? I like RP too! I think the current shop system stifles some of the merchant RP that could be happening. More consignment areas and less NPC merchants is my perfect merchant world!

[NegInfinity]

Considering this IS a game, and if Calodan isn't having F.U.N., then what is the damn purpose, if there isn't a little bit of risk vs. reward...and I personally can swallow a 25% risk of...wait for it...EPIC FAILURE!!!

I do not mind failing. In fact I cut my first DM event teeth in Wagner's events. I just want the skill to be useful. When it is not useful then that takes away from the fun of the game. When we going to meet up with our evils man?

High umd and scroll-casting has plenty of uses. The problem is those are not the kind of uses where you can just buff up with scrolls and then shrug off a mordekainen.

Either way, I think I'll just stick with in-game interactions for a while.

[Mallore]

Can I not just take 20 on a UMD for a scroll. . Or any UmD when I'm not in combat. . Problem fixed.



I know it's off topic but UMD is really messed up rule wise on the server. I think it's to stop people from min maxing or something. Or a bunch of spell casters didn't feel special.

[Valefort]

Actually it was never touched to my knowledge, it's just the vanilla version of UMD.

[Steve]

As the user of a soon to be master alchemist, how about no? Why make stuff available from vendors that you can have players do for themselves all the way? It's a multiplayer game.

I totally get where you are coming from, Chambo...but not everyone is lucky enough to be in your gaming timezone, and has the pleasure to seek you out IC for the goody goodies.

Besides...I think it is GOOD to have some perspective, in that: Baldur's Gate supposedly has 10,000 citizens. And the Wide is supposed to be a YUGE market place. Thus, there is likelihood of an NPC potion seller of some merit, that is not a PC.

[chad878262]

Would just need to make sure the npc merchant costs potions higher than master alchemists, else the class becomes pointless.

[Snarfy]

Can I not just take 20 on a UMD for a scroll. . Or any UmD when I'm not in combat. . Problem fixed.

That would be nice, since UMD is an all or nothing skill at present, meaning you have to invest fully into it to reap any benefit from it at all. I've learned this the hard way, as the 24'ish UMD on my main(who fails UMD rolls regularly on level 1 through 3 scrolls) has become something of a worthless investment. That's what I get for investing heavily in all those other RP/flavor rogue class skills I guess! ... which are equally as useless. (set traps, search, and open locks anyone? But I digress...)

As for the OP, caster level isn't that big of a problem IMHO. The cheating AI that mega-spams dispels, and metagames the buffs you have up... well, that's more of an issue, but not one that is necessarily fix-able.

[Steve]

I would like to see scroll CL limits raised to 20, so maybe also limit NPC potions to 20 CL.

That gives Master Alchemists and high CL Wizards/Divines something to do....