Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Akroma666 wrote:Bear Warrior Proposal

Current
Rage Duration: Base (10) + base CON modifier + 3 rounds, +5 rounds for each extend rage feat.
Regen: 2, 3, 4 per round
Natural AC bonus: is 2, 5, 7
EB: 2, 3, 4 (for bite and claws)
Base damage rolls for bite and claws:
(Black Bear) 1d8 (bite), 1d6, 1d6
(Brown Bear) 1d10 (bite), 1d8, 1d8
(Dire Bear) 2d6 (bite), 1d10, 1d10

I just checked and the original numbers for bear warrior seems to be in-part based upon source books for DnD. Specifically, the AC seems to be exactly correct and the EB + Strength Bonus + Slashing bonus + Damage attempts to get somewhat closer to the massive strength bonus Bear warrior gets in the books (+8/+16/+20). The extend rage seems to replace the +1 Rage/day that Bear Warrior should get at level 7. Because this is all from source material, or Luna's attempt at source materials, I'd prefer not changing any of these parameters.

mrm3ntalist wrote: The only change i like, is the EB and damage bonuses from gauntlets to transfer to the bear form.

I also like this change. My bear warrior bought the bear claws from the BG palace district merchant but they don't actually do anything for him.

I'm pretty sure I would prefer any developer who wants to work on Bear warrior to address the bugs in the class rather than the balance of the class. By that I mean, I do not think there is a serious imbalance with the class.

Seymor wrote:I just checked and the original numbers for bear warrior seems to be in-part based upon source books for DnD.

Black bear
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm
Brown Bear
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm
Dire Bear
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBear.htm
What?.. my numbers match the source.. don't they?

Seymor wrote:the EB + Strength Bonus + Slashing bonus + Damage attempts to get somewhat closer to the massive strength bonus Bear warrior gets in the books (+8/+16/+20).

The slashing bonuses are not in the game.. that's why i proposed the damage numbers I suggested. If they were, might not be bothering.

Seymor wrote: I'm pretty sure I would prefer any developer who wants to work on Bear warrior to address the bugs in the class rather than the balance of the class. By that I mean, I do not think there is a serious imbalance with the class.

Agreed that bugs are the priority.

This should be in an update in the near future :

Bear warrior update :

• Debug messages removed
• rage duration updated to CON MOD + 10 ROUNDS to be in line with the updated base barbarian rage duration
• bonus damage properties of either the weapon or the gloves added to the primary creature weapon of the bear
• AC script clean up, should now work as intended.

Valefort wrote:This should be in an update in the near future :

Bear warrior update :

• Debug messages removed
• rage duration updated to CON MOD + 10 ROUNDS to be in line with the updated base barbarian rage duration
• bonus damage properties of either the weapon or the gloves added to the primary creature
• weapon of the bear
• AC script clean up, should now work as intended.

Siiiick!!! So excited for this change, Will gladly bug report!
Do you know if the bonus slashing damage is now working as intended?

• Level 2 +1d4
• Level 6 +2d4
• Level 9 +2d6

As per the wiki;
http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Bear_Warrior

No, I should update the wiki to remove that slashing damage in fact

I mean it was not needed in the first place and now you have damage bonus from your weapon or gloves, that should be enough.

Valefort wrote:I mean it was not needed in the first place and now you have damage bonus from your weapon or gloves, that should be enough.

Yet to be determined, but I am very appreciative to the bug fixes and some of my suggestions being heard.

Do you know if the damage bonus from gloves stacks with the natural bonus? Meaning your +4 EB gloves carry over to add an additional +4 to the base EB 2, 3, 4 (for bite and claws)? or is it simply the higher of the 2 values at transformation?

No, the EB won't transfer, it's only the damage bonus properties so things like acid/sound/ bludgeoning.

Valefort wrote:No, the EB won't transfer, it's only the damage bonus properties so things like acid/sound/ bludgeoning.

Gotcha, thank you.

Looking forward to this, will do a write up and report and bugs when it goes live.

First of all: it's great that you're fixing the class! Thank you. I've always wanted to play a BW, but was put off by the unpredictability of it all and didn't want to invest many hours in a surprisingly nerfed build.

No, I should update the wiki to remove that slashing damage in fact

I mean it was not needed in the first place and now you have damage bonus from your weapon or gloves, that should be enough.

Mmh. Since most weapons or gloves give 1d4 maximum extra dmg and the wiki slashing dmg is 2d6, this practically means a loss of at least 4.5 average dmg per hit, and more for people with less high-end equipment. In my book, this ultimately makes for either low dmg or low AB (if using IPA for a mere +6 extra dmg) compared to more standard melee powerbuilds. With no Expose Weakness option to boot, I think this makes the Bear Warrior a defensive rather than aggressive class to choose. Hopefully the extra weapon dmg includes many different types - incl., for instance, Vampirism or poison ability dmg. Stun and similar effects would be great, too. This way, the increase in versatility might somewhat offset the loss in dmg.

Of course, I might be missing something about creature weapons. How do they actually work in NWN2? The character sheet shows the dmg of a bite and two claw attacks. Do these apply to every attack in the sequence? If yes, the damage should be good after all. If not, how do they apply?

To be clear I did nothing to the slashing damage, it just wasn't there in the script (and neither in the items used by the bear as far as I could tell) and I didn't add it either.

The extra weapon damage that will transfer only includes what I listed (elemental damage and physical damage) and nothing else. Changes can be made as QC sees fit (here, hot potatoe coming on you QCers ).

I'll say this, i think the lack of slashing damage progression is a big drawback as i have stated numerous times the class is significantly lacking in damage by comparison to its pure barbarian/fighter counterpart. I will however wait and see if the extra +1d4+1 will make a difference that is noticeable. At least i can kill the damned trolls now. I will reassess after patch is live. Thanks for your efforts Valefort.

As, admittedly, someone who builds more than he plays, I fully agree with Akroma666. Let's wait and see - and many many thanks to Valefort.

For after the bugs have been fixed, I would add to what has already been suggested with the following. I'm no programmer at all, but would hope these are relatively easy to implement:
1) as was mentioned earlier somewhere in the forum: add a sicken or stun effect to the bear attack (think of those drooling, sniffing bears in films like Revenant or The Edge).
2) add Thundering Rage as a bonus feat for the class. Angry bears are noisy.
3) add BOTH glove AND weapon dmg to Bear Shape dmg.
4) speculative: is there a way of making use of Multiattack? I recall seeing that feat in conn. with Companions on the NWN2 wiki. If so, maybe that would work well with the class.

Multiattack is a good idea. You can add it, while you are raging in bear form that you get the feat.

A couple other ideas to toss forward: How about something like an on-hit slow (to represent crippling lacerations), an on-hit disease (to represent..well, disgusting bear claws!), or an on-hit wounding (to represent bleeding). My personal favorite would be the on-hit wounding.

On that note, on-hit stun would be a bit strong.

I don't think we should give them thundering rage, for free. We may be breaching the point of "giving too much", with that.

I'm not sure about giving both weapon and glove damage. I think one or the other would be just fine. Personally, I think weapon damage would be better, simply due to the comparative lack of decent gloves.

I don't think we should give them thundering rage, for free. We may be breaching the point of "giving too much", with that.

Having never played with Thundering Rage, I might have underestimated it. Doesn't it only add a bit on criticals?

As to extra damage: I think gloves are better than weapons. EB doesn't count of course, and there are widely available 1d4 ones for many elements, and I've found a pair with +2 piercing and +2 bludgeoning before... Still, ultimately I think low damage with few options of improvement is the main problem with the class...

I love that Slow idea... Imagine those foes trying to hobble away with their scratch wounds...

Glove EB is better not added as dire bear adds +4 flat EB from the start. So you could use 1d8 acid gloves for example with no other bonuses and then again +4 EB when shifting to dire bear.

I think the class should have more damage period. Adding the proposed and approved slashing damage bonuses on progression would be fine and a vast improvement. These numbers and the higher regen numbers were already proved by QC over two years ago before even i was removed. I feel the class should have the bonus regen and damage implemented, but I'll wait and see how lacking it is.