Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Steve wrote:Sorry Chad, but that hardly answers my question, which is: what is the OOC reasoning behind limiting scrolls to CL 15/17?

Potions are free to use by every PC type. The awesome advantage. Elixirs are CL 30 but can poison you from overuse. Scrolls require UMD, can fail and cost you money, but fail to provide nondispelable benefits.

Why you hate scrolls so much!! Lol.

Not sure how I can make it more clear. OOC'ly Wands, Scrolls and Potions all have there place and I listed those differences that gives each a niche. I do not hate scrolls, nor does anyone else in QC that I am aware of. Scrolls are the only way to get level 8 and 9 buffs and the pricing has been reduced from 25 gold base to 15. They have their niche.

I wasn't asking about items place, but specifically (again): what is QC's reasoning behind allowing CL30 elixirs but CL15/17 scrolls? You hinted that it works to benefit 1 Class, but is that really why? Why is the CL 15/17 artificial limit there, and why must it stay?

Why has QC made this decision, or, upkeeps this decision?

We dont want high CL scrolls for many reasons

- 25CL is basically undispellable in PvE.
- There are spells that cannot be dispelled. For example GMW even at CL20 will give +5 with no chance of dispelling it
- There are useful spells such as spider skin, heroism, Gr Heroism etc not on a breach list. With such high CL umd users or even caster can have the max benefits of these spells
- Big powerboost to casters. Many blasting spells cap below CL 25. The same for umd users, which can get the full benefits from spells such as orbs and polarays which can bypass most of the mobs SR.
- Finally such change is going against the direction of the dispel fix

I dont know if you were a dm at the time, but the reason why Master Alchemist wasnt implemented sooner, was because of the higher CL elixirs. A compromise was found with the intoxication.

For those reasons - that i can remember from the top of my head - we dont plan on implementing higher CL potions. It was a recent discussion as well.

mrm3ntalist wrote:We dont want high CL scrolls for many reasons

- 25CL is basically undispellable in PvE.
- There are spells that cannot be dispelled. For example GMW even at CL20 will give +5 with no chance of dispelling it
- There are useful spells such as spider skin, heroism, Gr Heroism etc not on a breach list. With such high CL umd users or even caster can have the max benefits of these spells
- Big powerboost to casters. Many blasting spells cap below CL 25. The same for umd users, which can get the full benefits from spells such as orbs and polarays which can bypass most of the mobs SR.
- Finally such change is going against the direction of the dispel fix

I dont know if you were a dm at the time, but the reason why Master Alchemist wasnt implemented sooner, was because of the higher CL elixirs. A compromise was found with the intoxication.

For those reasons - that i can remember from the top of my head - we dont plan on implementing higher CL potions. It was a recent discussion as well.

Hey long as we can get them as cheap as we can before it breaks the IG merchants system I am good! There are plenty of really useful pots, wands and scrolls now.

Now this is a change of heart. You can probably go back into this thread and find me wanting more CL for them.

mrm3ntalist wrote:We dont want high CL scrolls for many reasons

- 25CL is basically undispellable in PvE.
- There are spells that cannot be dispelled. For example GMW even at CL20 will give +5 with no chance of dispelling it
- There are useful spells such as spider skin, heroism, Gr Heroism etc not on a breach list. With such high CL umd users or even caster can have the max benefits of these spells
- Big powerboost to casters. Many blasting spells cap below CL 25. The same for umd users, which can get the full benefits from spells such as orbs and polarays which can bypass most of the mobs SR.
- Finally such change is going against the direction of the dispel fix

I dont know if you were a dm at the time, but the reason why Master Alchemist wasnt implemented sooner, was because of the higher CL elixirs. A compromise was found with the intoxication.

For those reasons - that i can remember from the top of my head - we dont plan on implementing higher CL potions. It was a recent discussion as well.

Doesn't the actual math show CL 25 is 25% dispelable? That is a pretty high percentage!

Does GMW come as a potion, as an elixir? Or any other spells that can't be dispelled? If so, what makes potions/elixirs okay, but not scrolls?

What spells on the not on the Breach list are available as CL15+ as potions/elixirs? If there are any, one needs zero UMD to get full benefits, yes?

Reading a scroll in combat should require a concentration check. And I'd wager few UMD toons have high concentration skills as well. Is reading off a CL25 scroll going to really outperform what the UMD having toon probably can dish using their Class specialties?

The Dispel Fix was to fix a bug. That did not have anything to do with an artificially set CL level for scrolls!

Steve wrote:Doesn't the actual math show CL 25 is 25% dispelable? That is a pretty high percentage!

Does GMW come as a potion, as an elixir? Or any other spells that can't be dispelled? If so, what makes potions/elixirs okay, but not scrolls?

What spells on the not on the Breach list are available as CL15+ as potions/elixirs? If there are any, one needs zero UMD to get full benefits, yes?

Reading a scroll in combat should require a concentration check. And I'd wager few UMD toons have high concentration skills as well. Is reading off a CL25 scroll going to really outperform what the UMD having toon probably can dish using their Class specialties?

The Dispel Fix was to fix a bug. That did not have anything to do with an artificially set CL level for scrolls!

There are not many mobs that can dispel a cl25 spell, especially since the dispel mobs were reduced after the dispel fix. So the caster can be relatively safe against dispels and enjoy long duration.

There are no high CL potions, unless you mean elixirs.

Unless I am mistaken scrolls cannot be interrupted - the same with potions scars and SLAs i think

Finally, it is obvious you dont agree with this. You asked why and you were given the reasons of why not. Feel free to discuss this further.

No one is actually answering why elixirs can be CL 30, and scrolls not.

I read a lot of valid information about why high level CL scrolls are unneeded, but those reasons should also apply to elixirs, right?

But if elixirs are such that to imbibe more than 1 elixir would have pretty terrible effects to the toon, and that is the "risk" to allowing CLs much higher than scrolls, shouldn't that negative effect actually work?

And still, no one answers concretely why CL 15 is appropriate. Why not 16? Why not 19?

If I'm not mistaken, the RIG makes CL20+ potions. I'm pretty sure I have a few on my toons, but I can't check at the moment.

What I am not accepting is reasons given over actual answers. For example, you say CL 25 is basically undispelable, but actually, it is 25% dispelable. There you are giving a reason that is not an answer. Then you say most mobs can't Dispel a CL 25 spell, but what about duration, PvP, and just that CL 15 is arbitrary?

C'mon man! Say why CL30 elixirs are okay, but CL 25 scrolls are not. If you would say the answer is exactly that CL25 spells are too OP, then why allow elixirs? If CL25 on scrolls is too high, why is 15/17 just right? Is it literally and exactly that QC decided CL 16–24 is also too OP?

Finally, why the hell are scrolls NOT interruptible?!? THAT seems like a bug!

Steve wrote:Finally, why the hell are scrolls NOT interruptible?!? THAT seems like a bug!

mechanically speaking, how would you interrupt a scroll, potion, healer kit, or well, any item that can be used?

its use execute, how do you plan on interrupting it?

Elixirs were implemented as part of the MA PRC. It is the unique feature of the PRC and even then we were very skeptical about implementing them. We decided to implement them with some restrictions in order to avoid widespread use. That does not mean that potions will be the same.

That is why elixirs can be of high CL. My personal opinion is that even elixirs are not fine. If you want high CL spells, find a wizard/cleric.

Also GMW, Deezs repulsive barrier and several other Elixirs are capped below CL20. GMW is 16 or 19, so it is+4, Deez is capped to not grant the 20% concealment (15 or 16?) And there are others as well.

Valefort explained there is a downside to using more than one elixir. If that is not occurring it is a bug that will need to be addressed.

mrm3ntalist wrote:My personal opinion is that even elixirs are not fine. If you want high CL spells, find a wizard/cleric.

Well we agree on something! If the issue is to leave high CL magic to ACTUAL Casters, then elixirs are directly interfering with that. As I keep suggesting, CL 25 as a ceiling leaves a 25% failure, but CL25 provides magic to non-Casters in order to enjoy the epic Areas, which were designed with magic use in mind, for success.

So essentially I'm arguing for a 25% failure Standard, for design and implementation of mechanics.

@BMD: what are the mechanics for casting, which allow for interruption? Are they not applied when reading+casting? Is that an Engine issue that can't be fixed?

@Chad: okay, this is the first time I'm seeing it said there are artificial caps for some elixirs. Until now, it all seems arbitrarily decided, these caps, so I ask: is there a chart that outlines what is high, what is low, and what is okay/permitted? Is it fair to publish that chart, or are we supposed to learn about through trial and error?

No, I don't know this based on QC, I know this based on personal testing. I have commented it on QC before, but there was no response at the time. Rasael might be able to provide a full list, but I can only comment on what I have seen in game. There are a LOT of spells and I have only tested the Arcane ones. However, any spell scales with level is possible to have a cap below the max benefit (similar to how Barkskin wands are CL12 so you don't get +5 AC, but they cost the most possible for +4...)

While I would also tend to agree on the elixir bit, it is extremely rare that a player will fork over the cash for CL30 elixirs and even with the change I don't see that happening. A CL30 Improved Mage Armor is still going to cost 1,800 gold and is subject to breach/mords. Breach exists on chests so if you are doing a loot run any chest you open could remove it. CL30 level 7 spells will cost 4,200 to brew, so lets say around 5,000 gold to purchase, for a single use item. Simply put most players will just buy 2 potions of the lowest CL rather than one CL30, if it gets stripped they reapply and still spend less total gold.

Of course I could be wrong, I suppose we'll see after the update, but even then, you are only supposed to be able to use 1 safely so you can't have a non-caster warded to the 9's on CL30 elixirs without some pretty serious danger of any number of negative things happening. If they become a problem the CL can be lowered, but by the same argument that they are not fine, it makes the argument to leave scrolls as is all the more a safe bet.

Steve wrote: @BMD: what are the mechanics for casting, which allow for interruption? Are they not applied when reading+casting? Is that an Engine issue that can't be fixed?

im sure you have played a caster and should know that... casting takes gestures, chants and sometimes items to make a spell go off, the combined effort of such takes time

items require nothing but a command word or trigger phrase depending on what it is, which takes much less time, and of course in the case of potions they only require drinking or being thrown

mechanically -maybe- silence will stop wand/scroll use but i dont think it does, and if it did it wouldnt be effective anyway since they would have to already be in the field to which point they would simply move out first...

I think it takes just as much time to unfurl a scroll, compose your voice, read it allowed while concentrating on the text (which I would assume is always different, so no easy memorization?).

Not to forget to mention reading off a scroll should take two hands...so yea, put down the sword and shield while performing the action!!

except reading a scroll isnt like casting the actual spell since you are only reading the trigger to release the spell, and yea its not hard to do it with one hand if its not tied, just pick it up and let it roll down...

as far as reading it goes it doesnt take effort to do unless you are using UMD or decipher script meaning you dont understand it in the first place