Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:27 pm**

Tantive wrote:
Steve wrote:Okay, I have a question: do people that play gishes actually cast spells when they are in combat? My assumption is a gish simply buffs to high heaven and then blows through their enemies...but maybe others have mastered some spell slinging as well, and thus NEED Autostill?!?

Sometimes you are a long way in between possibilities to rest or switch armors. Sometimes you prepare spells to help out your group. Sometimes your spells need to be prepared for a roleplay scenario.

Playing an lvl 16 arcane gish (http://nwn2db.com/build/?246049) atm, I can not imagine being the only one finding it very unfitting rp-wise to change armor back and forth?

It is disappointing, considering it will take me to lvl 29 to get auto-still (0-9), a viable use of armor comes that late though. Especially since the epic lvls do take a very long time.

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:37 am**

aaron22 wrote:i guess i look at the gish like i would look at something unique or specific. how many viable archer builds are there? three... four? i said viable. there are quite a few specific builds like that with few possibilities. dirge? etc

The issue isn't playability. Of those archer builds how many are forced to either be: A bone armed evil necromancer, a non-evil dagger wielder, or include dragonslayer RP into their play? Unless roleplay doesn't matter and we are just talking mechanics.

I would like the EK to stand on its own two feet a bit more and not rely on other PrC's, to quote my own comparison from earlier in the thread -

BigJ wrote: The other build chad posted (16/10/4 split) has a bab of 22. A cleric version (Cleric / Hierophant / Fgt) has a bab of 23 (I think?), has all the Hphant bonuses, about 80hp more and can cast with armour + shield. It's free to pick RP / alignment (god) / weapon. The problem is the high bab EK is based on low bab casters, so its bab advantage is lost.

There isn't room to add something to the EK, seriously?. Again I'm not talking about +cl, but maybe adding that ftr bonus feat and giving it some magic damage to its melee (1d4) would at least make it feel more like a Ftr/mge class, rather than just being grateful for a high bab on a low bab base class.

Hell, even if you went for 10/10/10 splits the cleric build (Say cleric/Hosp/Heipnt for example) gets the same number of attacks, even when compared to wiz/ek/ds, let alone wiz/ek/pm. So where has that high bab gone? Why does Heiphnt get 5 feats to customise, on top of its other advantages?

Forget the CL, forget FvS, forget the divine feats, just the direct comparison above shows there is room to add something to EK, without it even catching up to the divine gish.

EK is the only class for gishes that gives you the FREEDOM to choose your own RP for your char (race/alignment/weapon/having two normal arms etc). That's why I made the opening post.

Steve wrote: or how about the Armored Warmage feat, so Light armor provides no spell failure (like Bard/Warlock).

Thats a great idea Steve, rather than adding classes that one feat could help a lot, rather than having to spend 4 feats (3 of them epic) to be a battlemage. Though maybe up the requirements so its not a low level gimme feat that starts appearing on every wiz/sorc build.

BigJ

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:39 am**

Back in the day, when I was on Staff and pushed for the Dispel fix to be implemented, that push was with a parallel objective of CL 25 being a Base Standard for casters/gishes, i.e. CL 25 would not be "too low for enjoyment/gameability/mechanical power.

Such an idea was so that builds like Wizard 12 / EK 10 / Fighter 8, or Sorcerer 12 / EK 10 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 4—both builds utilizing PsC— or any other combo one could wish for that landed on CL 25 at lvl 30, would be viable and balanced. And both would help in ways with either BAB or other fun tools for playability.

BGTSCC still has Dispels at a higher custom power, but supposedly that has been balanced by reducing overall mob castings of this (but I'm not of the opinion it is enough, because I experience many mobs bombing my toons with Dispels).

I think that if CL 25 was established as the base line CL for survivability, then the variety for gishes would immediately expand.

But that's just me!

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:48 am**

I'de say add the Armored Caster to such a thing like spellsword prc, or a duskblade baseclass.

Instead, I think this should give Devs something to think about. There is a glaring error currently, that spells without somatic components are also affected by arcane failure for wearing armor.

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:22 am**

Play a lowish level EK myself. They're really great when it comes to survivability. Think my guy is level 10 with 40+ AC, with semi decent gear. He takes forever to kill anything, but that's a sacrifice I took to acquire that sort of AC.

One thing I do agree with though, they lack flavor, in a very bad way. It'd be nice if they had a feat or two that wasn't mechanically powerful, but added something to the 'style' the class is supposed to have.

My dude kind of just feels like a worse version of a Cleric as an EK. But- you know, he's cooler because he uses arcane magic.

The class as it is, exists as a gate-way to being an Arcane gish. But it feels like it lacks something, other that the practicality of the feats it offers. It feels soul-less.

Granted, I'm bias in this subject since I play one. He's still fun, but UD characters are always fun.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:45 pm**

chambordini wrote:Anyone care to give me their best eldritch knight 10, wiz 10, dragonslayer 10 build?

You know, something with autostill, enough ab to be able to use IPA, ok defenses, passable damage, semi decent hit points? I invite you to give me a link to such in the nwn2db.

Wizard 6 / Arcane Scholar 7 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Dragon Slayer 7.

BAB : 23 (Five Attacks)
Caster Level : 30 (With practised spell caster)

Starting stats:

Code: Select all

STR : 16 (+ 6 ability increases, + 2 great strength feats)
DEX : Whatever you fancy
CON : Whatever you fancy
INT : 18 (+ 1 ability increase)
WIS : Whatever you fancy
CHA : Whatever you fancy

Feats:

Level 1: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Level 3: Martial Weapon Proficiency
Level 5: Empower Spell (Wizard bonus feat)
Level 6: Iron Will, (EK grants Combat casting, Skill Focus (Concentration))
Level 9: Northlander Hewing
Level 12: Dodge
Level 15: Practised Spellcaster
Level 18: Still Spell
Level 21: Great Strength I
Level 23: Great Strength II
Level 25: Automatic: Still Spell I
Level 27: Automatic: Still Spell II
Level 29: Automatic: Still Spell III

As for damage...

This build will reach base strength of 24, which is 28 with Bull's Strength or Tesner's Transformation.

One handed damage with a mundane longsword:
8 (Long Sword) + 9 (Strength) + 9 (Northlander hewing) + 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
= 31

Two handed damage with a mundane longsword:
8 (Long Sword) + 13 (Strength) + 9 (Northlander hewing) + 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
= 35

Without Tesner's Transformation your AB will be:
23 (BAB) + 9 (Strength) + 4 (Greater Heroism) + 5 (Greater Magic Weapon) - 2 (Northlander Hewing)
= 39, 34, 29

With Tesner's Transformation your AB will be:
23 (BAB) + 9 (Strength) + 4 (Greater Heroism) + 5 (Greater Magic Weapon) - 2 (Northlander Hewing) + 7 (Tesner's Transformation)
= 46, 41, 36

AC:
10 (Base)
+ 8 (Full Plate)
+ 1 (Dexterity bonus)
+ 6 (Greater Mage Armor)
+ 4 (Shield spell)
+ 3 (Dodge boots)
+ 3 (Deflection)
+ 5 (Natural from Spiderskin)
+ 3 (Tumble)
- 2 (Northlander Hewing)
= 41 (You can use a heavy shield or tower shield to make it slightly higher)

Now, the fact is that your Northlander Hewing damage output is not comparable to that of a strength based Barbarian. (About half of it.) However, you do have multitude of defenses at your disposal from from concealment, to mirror images, and blanket immunities. Not to mention ability to throw some empowered and maximized orbs, rays, and missile storms for a bit of extra arcane flavor.

Also, the things that I have sketched down here... are not exactly min-maxed. So just pointing out that Northlander Hewing feat is a valid alternative for Improved Power attack.

Improved Power attack costs two feats and -6 AB, for 6 or 12 points of damage.

While Northlander Hewing costs one feat, -2 AB, and two attacks that are likely to be misses, for 12,5~ points of damage. (With the previously mentioned build and weapon, with some other build this transaction will be different.)

Just bringing it up since no one mentioned Northlander Hewing...

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:06 am**

Comments Only wrote: His build post above

Thanks Comment Only, your build kind of underlines my point. You have to use a pumped STR build with just base INT to do half the damage of a fighter class. I assume that comparison was for a barb/Fb/wm, which can crit for over 200+ on one attack? Also, no still spell till lvl 18 and no full autostill till 29.

I like the extra fighter style feat though I'll have to look into those more, though i didnt even have room for PA on my build

Now, use the exact same build above but replace the classes using cleric/hierophant/Silverstar or Morning lord or Warpriest or Hosp or Stormlord. Similar/better bab, more options and class feats, and those 3 extra epic feats it can use for epic spells or just continuing to pump strength.

Can we now agree there is room to improve autostill and add also something to EK, not to pimp it up to high levels but just add something.

BigJ

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:55 am**

It should be noted as called out in commentsonly's post that he indicated the DEFENSES that EK has. The class gives up damage to gain higher AC, mirror images, higher saves, immunities, resistances, displacement, etc. There are ways to get higher damage, but you give up CL to do so. If you want to build a F8/W12/EK10 you can do so. CL will be 25, but you will get higher AB and damage. You'll still have all the defenses of a W13/EK10/DS7 (or 10/10/10 if you prefer) and you will do more damage via Fighter feats, but your defenses and other buffs will be dispelled easier. Likewise you could mix in rogue or assassin to get some damage via sneak attack, or Annointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness/Dragon Warrior/whatever to increase damage by varying amounts and giving up varying amounts of CL. You could also, if going for the Fighter route spend feats on CE, CI to apply INT to damage so you don't need to pump STR, should that be your choice, or you could take SB5/EK10/W10/DS5 and get CL26 with double INT to damage and 16 DEX (+4 Cats Grace) and wear a Mithral Breastplate. There are many different options to gain damage, but it costs Caster level. Not saying there shouldn't or won't at some point be something that can be granted to EK for flavor, but it is pretty low priority in comparison to other changes that are being worked on IMO.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:23 am**

BigJ wrote:Thanks Comment Only, your build kind of underlines my point. You have to use a pumped STR build with just base INT to do half the damage of a fighter class. I assume that comparison was for a barb/Fb/wm, which can crit for over 200+ on one attack? Also, no still spell till lvl 18 and no full autostill till 29.

I like the extra fighter style feat though I'll have to look into those more, though i didnt even have room for PA on my build

No, the comparison build is just something with 20 levels of Barbarian to get Epic Rage. Because in that case you can relatively easily reach 40 strength.

Thus with Northlander Hewing, IPA turned on, your damage will look follows:

One handed:
8 (Longsword) + 15 (Strength) + 4 (Enchantment Bonus) + 15 (Northlander Hewing) + 6 (Improved Power Attack)
= 48 (52 with 5 levels of FB, 54 with 10 levels of FB)

Two handed:
8 (Longsword) + 22 (Strength) + 4 (Enchantment Bonus) + 15 (Northlander Hewing) + 12 (Improved Power Attack)
= 61 (69 with 5 levels of FB, 73 with 10 levels of FB)

AB:
30 (BAB) + 15 (Strength) + 4 (Enchantment Bonus) - 2 (Northlander Hewing) - 6 (Power Attack)
= 41

A Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master build is possible, it is just so feat starved that you cannot really get enough Extend Rage feats to make use of your class rage ability.

As for using Northlander Hewing with a stock Rogue/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master, well, the Northlander Hewing bonus damage does not get multiplied on critical hits. Hence it makes more sense not to cut your amount of attacks in half because more attacks translate to more crits, and hence more damage. Your '+8' AB from feats kinds helps at it too.

Northlander Hewing only really of works for Strength based builds with BAB of at least 21, and those with silly high Strength score.

But that is bit off-topic. As for late Still spell - that build of mine gets late armor proficiencies so it doesn't matter that much. You can level up doing quests, and that 70k staff with unlimited number of caster level 3 magic missile spell works well enough with a buffed up summon by your side.

BigJ wrote:Now, use the exact same build above but replace the classes using cleric/hierophant/Silverstar or Morning lord or Warpriest or Hosp or Stormlord. Similar/better bab, more options and class feats, and those 3 extra epic feats it can use for epic spells or just continuing to pump strength.

Can we now agree there is room to improve autostill and add also something to EK, not to pimp it up to high levels but just add something.

BigJ

Well, I suppose Automatic: Still Spell feats could require spellcraft of 24, the same as Automatic: Silent Spell. (Even Automatic: Quicken Spell could be reduced to require just 24 spellcraft - and that would make it a lot more feasible a lot more caster builds.) Which means that at level 21, you can pick your first 'Automatic spell feat' of your choice. Hence, you could have all three feats of a type at character level of 25.

Level 25 is a lot faster to reach than level 29, so the change would be more of an ease of use than anything else. A change that improves the 'Gish' quality of life, so to speak.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:28 am**

chad878262 wrote:Well, I suppose Automatic: Still Spell feats could require spellcraft of 24, the same as Automatic: Silent Spell.

This change has been implemented (reducing Spellcraft requirement of Autostill to 24) and the Custom Changes thread has been edited to indicate the change.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:46 am**

chad878262 wrote: This change has been implemented (reducing Spellcraft requirement of Autostill to 24) and the Custom Changes thread has been edited to indicate the change.

Oh, good to know!

But that leaves Eldritch Knight...

So how about adding some class skills for it:
- Lore: Arcana
- Lore: Nobility and Royalty
- Sense Motive

This page says those already are: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49038, and this doesn't: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49041

Also, since EK gets skills such as Ride, Swim, and Jump, I suppose they could get Tumble as a class skill. Additionally, access to Heal as a class skill might also be a quite a big boon.

Then there is the matter of hitpoints, from d6 they could go to d8. That is +20 HP, which to me seems like a minor change.

As for saves, currently EK only has high fortitude save progression. Would high will save progression cause a big change? You know, +4 to will saves?

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:59 am**

Sense motive and the lore skills should be added if that's not the case, I'll check.
Tumble and heal though .. those are power skills and EK definitely does not need any boost there, same for saving throws.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:03 pm**

Wait....Automatic Still Spell now requires 24 instead of 27 spellcraft?

That means it can be taken at 21?

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:20 pm**

Nachti wrote:Wait....Automatic Still Spell now requires 24 instead of 27 spellcraft?

That means it can be taken at 21?

Subject: Custom Changes

DM Cradh wrote:FEAT CHANGES:

New Feats have also been implemented. View these under New Feats. [table]
[tr][th][/th][th][/th][/tr][tr][tr][td]Auto Still Spell I, II, and III[/td][td]The spellcraft requirement has been reduced from 27 to 24, allowing it to be taken as early as 21st level.[/td][/tr][td]Blazing Aura[/td][td]Now requires 23 Wisdom to qualify for this feat[/td][/tr][tr][td]Blinding Speed[/td][td]The feat is now instantly activated, and has 4 uses/day lasting 10 rounds each[/td][/tr][tr][td]Damnation[/td][td]Spell Resistance does apply[/td][/tr][tr][td]Dinosaur Companion[/td][td]This feat has been disabled[/td][/tr][tr][td]Dragon Shape[/td][td]Now only requires 27 wisdom to qualify for this feat. Dragon Shape varies in strength according to your druid level. A level 30 druid becomes a 30 HD Dragon, a level 28-29 druid becomes a 28 HD Dragon and a level 27 or lower druid becomes a 25 HD Dragon.[/td][/tr][tr][td]Entropic Husk[/td][td]Spell Resistance does apply[/td][/tr][tr][td]Eldritch Master[/td][td]The 16 Warlock level prerequisite is now replaced with Eldritch Blast (9D6)[/td][/tr][tr][td]Epic Animal Companion[/td][td]No longer has a Wisdom prerequisite[/td][/tr][tr][td]Epic Rage[/td][td]Now requires 21 Strength to qualify for this feat[/td][/tr][tr][td]Fey Power[/td][td]Fey Power will increase your HD by 1 for determining Eldritch Blast Progression. This does not count towards feat prerequisites[/td][/tr][tr][td]Fiendish Power[/td][td]Fiendish Power will increase your HD by 1 for determining Eldritch Blast Progression. This does not count towards feat prerequisites[/td][/tr][tr][td]Hellball[/td][td]This feat has 3 uses/day. Spell Resistance does apply.[/td][/tr][tr][td]Hymn of Requiem[/td][td]Hymn of Requiem will now heal all injured party members, to a maximum of 4 characters affected at once. The amount healed is equal to (Bard Level + Perform Skill)/2[/td][/tr][tr][td]Mass Fowl[/td][td]Spell Resistance does apply[/td][/tr][tr][td]Oaken Resilience[/td][td]The feat is now instantly activated[/td][/tr][tr][td]Persistent Spell[/td][td]This feat has been disabled[/td][/tr][tr][td]Rage[/td][td]Duration has been extended by 5 rounds[/td][/tr][tr][td]Song of Requiem[/td][td]Damage is now as follows:

Against 1 enemy: Bard Level + Perform Skill
Against 2 enemies: (Bard Level + Perform Skill)/2
Against 3+ enemies: (Bard Level + Perform Skill)/3

The feat will at maximum affect 6 enemies.[/td][/tr][tr][td]Vampiric Feast[/td][td]Spell Resistance does apply[/td][/tr][tr][td]Thundering Rage[/td][td]Now requires 21 STR to qualify for this feat.[/td][/tr][/table]

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:01 pm**

chad878262 wrote: This change has been implemented (reducing Spellcraft requirement of Autostill to 24) and the Custom Changes thread has been edited to indicate the change.

Thanks Chad, and all others involved in that change, it helps

As for EK, re what's been discussed already in this thread can I propose the following, seeing as they would hopefully mean minimal dev time -

Increase to d8hp.
Replace one (or both for the use there are) currently granted feats at lvl 1 with a pickable Bonus Feat (Per Pnp)
A damage feat (copy the one from AK/WoD, but make it magic damage only)

BigJ

Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Autostill + Eldritch Knight

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Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight

Re: Autostill + Eldritch Knight